Wizrocklopedia

Question Tuesday

Freya

Have you been reading The Wrock Snob?

The Wrock Snob is a no-holds barred blog that reviews wizard rock with absolute honesty. The reviews seem to be mixed so far – from “this is too mean, I won’t read it” to “glad to see someone is saying these things”. But, here’s the kicker – it’s anonymous.

Think about that for a second.

We talk about how our community is so accepting of everyone, but when one of our own wants to state their honest opinion about the music, they feel the need to be anonymous. Obviously, they are well aware that their opinions might be unpopular, and they fear the backlash of the community.

WHOA. Does anyone else feel like that is wrong? Here at the ‘pedia, we do try to be unbiased to a certain degree, but there have been instances where an unpopular opinion led to backlash bad enough to cause tears and permanent changes in some wizard rock fandom relationships.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I am all about the love and lollipops aspect of our community, and I truly adore the fact that we encourage each other so much. However, it’s a pretty telling statement of our relationships to say that we can’t be honest without completely ruining a friendship. I know that we are stronger than that, right?

What do you think? Is it ok to expect everyone to walk on eggshells for fear of hurt feelings, or do we truly want to better ourselves and accept the constructive criticism that is brought about at times?

(This Question Tuesday isn’t meant to be about anything specific said on The Wrock Snob site, more about the idea in general. If you want to do that, I would encourage you to start a discussion over there.)

Freya

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125 responses to “Question Tuesday”

  1. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    I completely agree. For all of the togetherness that our community preaches, we practice a VERY different form.

    But honestly, this is nothing new. Drama has ALWAYS been prevalent in our community, and this is just another place where drama would get in the way of what’s trying to be accomplished- brutally honest wrock reviews.

    And the drama’s stirring already. People are trying to figure out who runs it. Some people in this community are so backward that they refuse to read The Wrock Snob, because they can’t handle the fact that someone is honestly critiquing something that they enjoy.

    That right there speaks very loudly about our fandom. We all try to be so ‘feel-good’ with each other, that whenever ANYONE has a dissenting opinion, they’re instantly made into a pariah.

    On top of that, anonymity perhaps emboldens the writer. Without it, they may not be daring enough to say exactly what they want to say, fearing the backlash, again. But if they’re anonymous, they can fully and completely speak their mind, leading to an unbiased piece.

    So while I hate that anonymity is necessary, yes, it is. Without it, The Wrock Snob couldn’t exist.

    Reply
  2. Lizz Avatar
    Lizz

    I think there’s a difference between being honest in person and honest in the form of a review that hundreds of people will read online. I know that I couldn’t, in good conscience, publicly proclaim that so-and-so’s last album was rubbish when I know them personally and consider them to be friends of mine. Guilt, guilt, guilt.

    I tried to remedy this problem by starting up the Two Takes column on the ‘pedia, encouraging reviewers to be objective but refrain from scathing criticism. But my resignation ended that column prematurely.

    While I don’t think it’s wrong for such a thing to exist, I know that I, personally, wouldn’t be able to participate. My friendships are far more important than my opinions.

    Reply
  3. Whompy Avatar
    Whompy

    I think it’s funny that the author still felt it was necessary to issue a thousand disclaimers in an article that’s anonymous and intended to be “skullfuckingly honest” or whatever. Sort of demonstrates the eggshells we’re all walking on to avoid drama. Personally I’m really looking forward to the forthcoming review of Demons at the Helm and the discussion of whether or not it even qualifies as metawizardrock. I already have my counter-arguments lined up. 😀 And personally, I think the Wrock Snob blog is a great idea, although I generally feel that anonymous blogs show a lack of bravery and conviction. Being anonymous only serves to perpetuate the community’s intolerance of alternative opinions.

    Reply
  4. Jacquelyn Avatar
    Jacquelyn

    I like how you put that, Lizz. “My friendships are more important than my opinions.”

    (as a side note, are you a Hufflepuff?)

    I’d like to play the devil’s advocate to that though.

    Are you unwilling to stand up for what you believe, because you’re afraid of losing your friends? Do you think that your friends would be so heartbroken if you gave an honest review of their music?

    Personally, if someone told me (me hypothetically being MoM in this instance) that my third album isn’t up the the standard I set with my first two, I would work even harder to make the fourth better.

    But, then again, I’m Slytherin, and I constantly strive to be better in everything I do in whatever way I can. And getting constructive criticism in a tactful way (tactful, IMO, at least. they could of been ruthless) like the wrock snob did would push me.

    Now, if they had been rude and just not nice people about it, I would of shrugged and went “whateva haters” and just continued doing my thing.

    Perhaps this is just my personality though.

    Now, as for the anonymous part of it…

    If you think about it, even though this person says they are a fan of MoM, do you think they would be welcome in this community anymore, like they probably are now?

    It’s the sad truth. They wouldn’t be treated the same, I don’t think. People would walk on eggshells around them.

    I’d be afraid they’d say something bad about me.

    BUT

    It’s not just in this community. It’s the SAME thing in the rest of my life too.

    We may be wizards, but we’re human too.

    And humans are ruthless. And we would exorcise this person from the community if we knew who they were. Maybe (probably) not intentionally, but I don’t think that person would ever feel like they’re being treated the same again.

    Reply
  5. Freya Avatar
    Freya

    “My friendships are more important than my opinions.”

    But shouldn’t friendships be able to handle a difference of opinion? Especially about something like musical taste?

    Reply
  6. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    But this isn’t something as simple as musical taste. Artists pour their hearts into what they create, and if those who are close to them react negatively to it, it can be a pretty crushing experience.

    It’s one thing to have different taste in music. This is something much deeper entirely.

    Reply
  7. Alli Avatar
    Alli

    I think it’s bad form to review something anonymously like that. There’s a difference between honest criticism and ripping something apart. Honest criticism doesn’t often lend to people hiding behind anonymity; ripping something/someone apart for the sake of being mean or inflamatory does.

    I like the spirit of the blog—to provide honest feedback that is both positive and negative—but I don’t think it needs to be carried out anonymously.

    Reply
  8. Jacquelyn Avatar
    Jacquelyn

    Brad- I completely 100% agree as musicians we put our souls into our music.

    But again, as a devil’s advocate, and a Slytherin, there are instances where we do not put our entire soul into it.

    Shall we say, half-assing it.

    Or meeting a deadline.

    I know that I was not 100% happy with Greetings From the Dungeons, and for that I feel embarrassed to my fans and like I cheated them out of something, and if the wrock snob had said that about my album I’d of been like “yea, I could of done better. And I’m going to do better. Just you wait and see.”

    Now obviously we cannot speak on behalf of the MoM boys but here’s something else to chew on:

    If you knew there was stuff about your music you could change, without changing your style or creativity, and get more people to listen to you, would you do it?

    Personally, and this is just one witches opinion, if I knew that say the drums could be better one x track or something of the like, or if I tweeked it, stuff like that, I’d probably do it.

    Because I don’t only make music for myself. I make music for the people who listen to me. So much so that I’ve drawn inspiration from them, and I want them to love my music as much as possible, because I owe that to them for their support. I won’t comprimise my artistic integrity, but, you know, I do what I can.

    Reply
  9. Freya Avatar
    Freya

    But Brad, Wrock Snob claims he doesn’t know MoM. That means that he doesn’t fear THEIR backlash, but that of people who like them (presumably his/her friends in the community). I don’t think anyone who is defending Onward and Upward in this situation is doing it out of loyalty to the band members, but rather, because they happen to like the album.

    And I’m not saying that hurtful things being said won’t affect a musician, but there is a certain amount of thick-skinnedness that you need to have to put yourself and your art in the public eye like that. As Matt said, he’s looking forward to the review of his album and the ensuing debate. Likewise, I’m pretty sure none of the MoM guys are at home crying about this right now. They’ve heard worse.

    Reply
  10. Whompy Avatar
    Whompy

    A few days ago, Paul D told me what he REALLY thinks of Demons at the Helm. And it wasn’t pretty. It didn’t offend me, and I still love him. People need to have thicker skins about this stuff. Art appreciation is subjective and you can’t expect everyone to like what you’re doing.

    Reply
  11. Freya Avatar
    Freya

    Alli, I think Wrock Snob does an excellent job of specifically stating their criticisms, though. Yes, the review is scathing. But he/she doesn’t say, “This is dumb. I hate it.”
    Example: “It’s this crunchy off-beat hip-hop drum that thankfully lasts only a few moments but leaves a rotten taste in the ears.”
    That is a very specific criticism, whether or not you agree with it.

    Reply
  12. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    I can totally agree with you guys. Musicians do need to be thick-skinned to a certain degree. But the thing is- this is what this person is doing CONTINUALLY, since it’s a blog project. You’re still friends with Paul because of course your friendship goes much deeper than that. That’s totally cool.

    But for this person? If they weren’t anonymous, they’d have a reputation of trashing wizard rockers. Regardless of how objective they are, people would hold it against them, be it fans, musicians, whathaveyou. Maybe not even intentionally, but it would still happen.

    As for hiding under anonymity? I don’t agree with that sentiment at all. See, this person isn’t anonymous because they want to be malicious or vindictive. They’re anonymous because they fear the backlash they would get if people knew who they really were.

    The writing on The Wrock Snob completely reflects this. It’s not rude. It’s not vindictive for the sake of it. This person is not trying to stir shit. Every time they provide a critique of something, they give solid, logical reasoning for WHY they think that way. And as long as they’re not going out of their way to be insulting, I think it can only be seen as a good thing.

    Reply
  13. Jarrod Avatar
    Jarrod

    We don’t know that they are going to trash EVERY band. If they’re a wrock fan, they obviously like some bands. I think the scathing MoM review was a good initial shock that will get people reading. If the first review was “OMG, I luuuurved The Lupins new CD”, I doubt it would catch on very quickly.

    I’m interested to see where this blog goes.

    -Jarrod/G&F

    Reply
  14. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    That’s true, but you can guarantee that the vast majority of their reviews won’t be positive, and that people are going to take issue with that.

    That, or, when they DO get around to writing a positive review, they’ll be accused of favouritism.

    Reply
  15. Russ Avatar
    Russ

    I love it. I’ve also been a fan of sites like Metal Sludge since the beginning and I honestly felt it lost a lot of it’s scathing but honest criticism of bands when the owner of the site was forced to come public. He happened to be a member of an 80’s hair metal band, but in hindsight had no problem skewering his own music as well as others, so he got a lot of credit for that.

    A lot of comments above were very valid about people needing to be thick-skinned if they’re an artist. I welcome people telling me what they didn’t like, or felt was lacking, in my music. Because it’s honest and it helps me as a musician. I don’t care for stupid comments like “oh maybe if you weren’t so loud and heavy you’d be more TEH POPULARSSSS” so I ignored those. But at least people felt they could make those comments to me. And I’m cool with that. Because, you know, wizard rock is a community and all.

    I’ve never been a fan of anonymity myself. BUT I understand why people undertake that cloak – because sometimes people who have their work commented on take it personally and react in a personal manner. It’s ok, it’s human nature. And in a case like this blog, it’s constructive criticism of an album – specific individual elements of songs are broken down and discussed, which shows the reviewer paid attention to detail, actually *listened* and THEN commented. I can live with that type of site 100%. If it was someone bashing for the sake of bashing and attacking people personally (IE “I hated Creevey Crisis because Russ is losing his hair and is too old for this and he refused my Facebook invite”) then it’d be a different story. Because then you’re getting into stupid, malicious territory.

    Personally I don’t mind being brought down a peg or two. I think some people would be better off if they were brought down a peg or two as well. And I applaud Matt’s outlook of saying he’s prepared to rebut comments already – because he’s viewing it as an engaging discussion, not something he’s going to cry into his pillow about at night. And also like others said, just because one album got a poor review doesn’t mean the rest will. Maybe some will get A’s. Maybe some will be D’s. If artists are putting things out there, they need to be prepared for the good comments, and the bad comments. That’s just how it works.

    Let’s face it – a lot of the sites who promoted wrock during it’s explosion are dormant now. Isn’t a site that’s actively discussing wrock, and providing links to bands that some may have never heard of, a good thing? You may not like or agree with some things said, but as long as it’s constructive and not malicious, I don’t see the big deal about it. In the infamous words of Mike Muir – “Just ’cause you don’t like it, don’t mean it ain’t no good”

    Reply
  16. Jacquelyn Avatar
    Jacquelyn

    Blah. Internet went out and deleted my last comment.

    So here’s what I remember:

    As musicians, we know that the majority of the world is not a fan. Especially as a wizard rock musician.

    So right away when we start a band, we know that our “muggle” friends and family aren’t all going to support us.

    I almost think that the people who leave their bands after only a short stint are the ones with the weaker “dragon hide.” Maybe, maybe not. Certainly in some cases.

    But, going in, we recognize that there’s going to be people who will critisize us. And I for one am glad that it’s someone in our community rather than not. I think that the wrock snob was tactful and provided constructive criticism.

    That being said, Brad, and as I said before, the wrock snob will always have to remain anonymous unless we all become perfect human beings, unfortunately.

    Here’s the wonderful thing about this community:

    We have people like Matt and Erin Pyne. Erin took time out of her days to talk to me about programs she uses for music, and I know I can count on her to support me in whatever way she can without putting herself out. She’s that kind of person. And Matt who unconditionally supports you. I told him he inspired one of my songs and that he was abig reason for me getting into the wizard rock scene at azkatraz. And you know what he said (roughly, it’s been a while). “That’s cool! Is there anywhere online I can hear it?”

    And for all we know, the wrock snob is Erin or Matt. And you know what? I’d be cool with that.

    Constructive criticism doesn’t have to be by a name, it just has to be honest.

    And I bet you that whoever is the wrock snob is a huge supporter when they’re not acting with anonymity. And I’m cool with that. Because when it comes down to it, they’re doing what’s comfortable for them, and who are we to try and force them to give their name?

    I don’t think it’s cowardly, I think it’s smart, given the world that we live in today, and if I were the wrock snob (and for all you know, I am, whether literally or just with my friends) I’d stay anonymous too.

    Reply
  17. somuchpotential Avatar
    somuchpotential

    Freya (this is Alli, I forgot I wasn’t logged in), I don’t think a scathing review is necessarily a bad thing, I was speaking primarily to the fact that it is anonymous. I do applaud that someone is being brave enough to make hard criticisms, but doing so anonymously seems like they’re hiding.

    Now, if they’re someone who is protecting an identity—the way an author might use a pen name to be able to write both YA novels and romance novels—that’s different. The question presented here though does not assume that and seemed (to me) more focused on “it is okay that this is being done and is it okay that it is anonymous?”

    And I am concerned that a reviewer who is acting anonymously will eventually use that anonymity to be purposely inflammatory. I do think the wrock community could use a healthy spoonful of honest criticism, but I don’t think it needs anyone being purposely inflammatory.

    Reply
  18. Jacquelyn Avatar
    Jacquelyn

    BTW, I wanted to say, RUSS, HOLY CRAP. Words right out of my mouth.

    The wrock snob is something a lot of smaller bands have been hoping for, I think.

    Reply
  19. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    Alli, I don’t think that’s the case, though.

    Look at the writing. Nothing in there is purposely inflammatory. It’s all perfectly reasonable comments. I don’t see any reason as to why that should change. And anyway, there is another side to this. This isn’t old fashioned journalism- where only one side of the story is presented. The Wrock Snob ENCOURAGES people to comment AND to disagree with what they’re saying.

    That right there tells me that this person has absolutely zero malicious intent in mind. They only use anonymity to protect their identity.

    Reply
  20. Jacquelyn Avatar
    Jacquelyn

    So just so I know what you’re arguing, Brad, are your for or against their anonymity? (Sorry, I’m tired)

    Reply
  21. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    I’m completely for anonymity. This person has every right to remain anonymous if that’s their choice, and they have very good reasons to do so.

    Reply
  22. Freya Avatar
    Freya

    Alli, I meant more, “is it ok that we as a community have made it so someone feels that they have to be anonymous to state a differing opinion?” (Which is what I believe the reason for anonymity is)
    This could be a wrocker, a ‘pedia author, an event planner, who is protecting their identity via a penname. Hell, it could be Mark Jennings for all we know!

    Reply
  23. Arodhwen Avatar
    Arodhwen

    I agree with Freya that friendships should be able to handle a difference of opinion. I also agree with BradAusrotas in that it CAN be crushing if close friends react negatively. But at the same time, how many TV shows have taught us that it’s better to let someone KNOW they’re doing something wrong than to build them up and let them make fools of themselves wearing that ridiculous peacock-feather suit they made themselves and think is hot fashion? (Not that I think Onward and Upward is ridiculous.)

    That aside, the review wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be. There was a …little praise in it. (Not quite enough to counterbalance the onslaught…) The only thing that bothered me were that some of its “criticisms” were simply calling things crap based on their own musical taste and offered no suggestions for improvement. They also need to recognize that not every wrock fan out there has HEARD all of the songs when they go in to vote. I’m willing to bet that some ballots didn’t even have votes in all categories.

    Reply
  24. Lena Avatar
    Lena

    Here’s what I have to say.

    I am a professional musician with classical and contemporary training, and I am VERY picky when it comes to what wizard rock I listen to. In fact, the ONLY wizard rock CDs I listen to on a regular basis are those by MoM. (This is not to say that I don’t enjoy listening to wrock! I LOVE hearing bands live. In fact, I don’t think I have ever been to a live performance that I have not enjoyed. I’m just not a CD girl.) I think I was really jarred by the review of Onward and Upward because, frankly, I think MoM knows how to write and produce music better than almost all of us other wrockers. All of those guys were professional musicians before they joined into the wrock scene and they know how to write music that is both accessible and enjoyable for the wrock audience. And the important thing is that people LIKE it. Take, for example, JFF, who is one of my favorite live performers. His songs are simple. Boringly simple, in fact (Sorry, Justin, you know I love you!) and his voice is sub-par. Yeah, I said it. But I don’t care because I, along with almost everyone else in the wrock community, absolutely love listening to him. I guess my point is… it doesn’t matter how “good” your music is, as long as people are listening to it.

    Side note #1: I would like to read a review of Songs from Beedle the Bard from this guy. I’m actually thinking of contacting him and asking him to run it next week.

    All of this is not to say that this guy isn’t entitled to his (or her, but I’m just saying guy) own opinion! I have some extremely strong opinions about wizard rock, many of which may shock you. I am actually planning on making an extensive youtube video sometime at the end of the summer in which I can express these opinions. However, most of my thoughts are on the social and political aspects of Wizard Rock, not the music. I am curious as to what WrockSnob has to say on these subjects, and I have a feeling that I’m going to agree with him on many of his points. HOWEVER, to the average wizard rock listener (those who don’t get to attend conventions) these things don’t matter, and it’s all about the music.

    Side note #2: I do think his review was extremely well-phrased. It wasn’t rude or mean at all. I appreciate this.

    I think that one of the “inclusive” aspects of wizard rock is that everyone is entitled to make music in a safe environment. For example, I never would’ve felt comfortable playing guitar in front of people if it hadn’t been for this community. Grace (snidget) taught herself a new instrument just so she could JOIN this genre. Lyricists and people who have little or no musical abilities are starting bands because they feel comfortable that they will not get shut down or ridiculed by their listeners. And people WILL listen.

    I am always open to constructive criticism on my music, because I have been doing this for a long time; but for those of you in newer, smaller bands, are you at all put off or intimidated by this guy? Is wizard rock really “safe” anymore? As a professional and classically-trained musician, I have my own opinions on a lot of sub-par (musically) wizard rock, but I would never EVER say these things on the internet; I care about the people in the fandom too much. I think a true wizard rock fan would respect the fandom enough to keep his opinions to himself (or herself.)

    On the note of anonymity: I would like to know who this person is, so I can talk with them more. I think it’s really risky and bold what they’re doing, and I really admire this about them. I’m not upset with them, just a little taken aback; however, I think that they WOULD have some pretty angry people after them if they went public. I like their approach.

    Side note #3: Do you think that WrockSnob is a musician? And do you think that a non-musician has the right to publicly judge people like this?

    To sum up: if you have a problem with my music, you can a) say it to my face and b) not listen to it. And, WrockSnob, I’d love to share my musical opinions with you sometime, as long as you don’t put them on your blog.

    The End.

    I know this was pretty shaky and I may have sounded like a hyporcate at some points. I am simultaneously really taken aback and extremely impressed. Please, disagree with me, people! This is a great discussion 🙂

    Reply
  25. Steph Avatar
    Steph

    I think the anonymous nature is more to say “it doesn’t MATTER who’s writing this”. Because really, we don’t need to put a face to it. Plus, the blog may be somewhat written by a character put on by this person.

    I think what is off-putting is the description of the blog. If this is just supposed to be an honest blog about music, opinnions, etc then great! This can actually make us all better and stronger. However, the idea that the blog is meant to “Skullfuck wizard rock’s harmonious sense of community since 2010″…is where I start to want to take a step back, and where I think part of this trepidation might be coming from. Maybe if they just boiled it down to “honest reporting” people might respond a bit better.

    And in the end, the review was well written, funny, and did a fantastic job of also plugging some really amazing bands that MoM fans SHOULD hear about…but probably do not listen to. So, they actually are doing a FANTASTIC job of promoting the community. Yeah, they were harsh on the album itself, but I think the article was written from the perspective of being disappointed in a band that they expect more from and better content from. Which is a completely VALID opinion on any kind of music that you feel strongly about.

    This isn’t a bad thing…at least not yet. And LOOK! Look how much buzz, conversation, and general interest this has produced in our community in less than 24 hours. There is no such thing as bad publicity.

    Reply
  26. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    Exactly, Steph.

    I too got worried when I saw that, because that was the first thing I thought: “Oh, great, they’re trying to stir shit.”

    But they proved me wrong. Because that’s not at all what they’re trying to do.

    Honestly? I think that tagline’s just there for the shock value. It’s letting people know that they’re really going to cut through the shit, and to expect nothing short of that.

    Reply
  27. Russ Avatar
    Russ

    I agree Steph, the blog description does make it seem like they’re there only to be a negative rabble rouser. I hope they’re not. The first review is intentionally attention-grabbing, as we’ve all noticed 😀 If it balances “skull fucking wrock” with “skull massaging wrock” then I think we’ll all be down with that.

    And to Lena – I think it’s perfectly cool to support people, and dislike their music and be critical of it. There’s plenty of wrock folks whom I consider awesome people and friends, but I never listen to their band. Not liking certain types of music is just human nature, just because it’s wrock doesn’t mean you have to like it. This reviewer may see it that same way, hence the desire to give honest well thought criticism (even if it is written a little too Kissing Suzy Kolber-ish) because you might feel bad knocking down your friends a bit.

    Reply
  28. Lena Avatar
    Lena

    Last thing: I bet this is somebody I know and I’m too dumb to figure out who it is…

    Reply
  29. Jace Avatar
    Jace

    I’m more than thrilled with Wrocksnob. I think everyone will agree that the fact that we are so uplifting and encouraging is one of our strongest characteristics. I mean, if it hadn’t been for the ‘pedia, Christian, and many others, I wouldn’t have done what i was able to in the wizard rock community.

    But even if it is our strongest, its also our weakest. This community is filled with amazing musicians, it’s also filled with mediocre ones (myself included) who are/were not growing because the only feedback they were getting is/was, “OMGLYKTHATSONGWASTOTESAWESOME.” Which don’t get me wrong, is great to hear, always. But at the same time, if my song completely totally blows, I want to know that. I want to know how to fix it, i want to learn from my mistakes and become better at my craft.

    I hope that’s what we get from the WrockSnob. Unbiased, honest feedback that people wont get too offended over. I mean, shit, if you cant take criticism, being an artist, in any form, is not for you.

    Also, it’s a shame this person feels the need to be anonymous, but i don’t blame them. I’ve seen how people in this community react to this sort of stuff (i think we all remember the Great ‘Pedia Debate of 09.) I would anon too if it were me.

    Reply
  30. Freya Avatar
    Freya

    From Lena: “Do you think that WrockSnob is a musician? And do you think that a non-musician has the right to publicly judge people like this?”

    It’s rather unfair to say that a non-musician can’t write a review. Regardless of whether or not they are a musician, they talk about music intelligently and knowledgeably. I’m not a singer, but I can tell when someone is singing off-key. Does that mean I’m not allowed to mention it? Are you not allowed to criticize books if you aren’t an author?
    I’m sure you can see the point I’m trying to make. We’re all allowed to have opinions regardless of our areas of expertise. However, as a musician/expert, you are certainly entitled to disagree with what they say if it is incorrect in regards to the musical information.

    Reply
  31. Lena Avatar
    Lena

    @Freya Wow. I really thought I deleted that sentence before I posted it. I went back and read it again… I disagree with most everything he said about the CD but he did it in a musical way. I really am just curious as to what kind of musical background he has.

    Reply
  32. Marauder Avatar
    Marauder

    I have mixed feelings about this.

    On one hand, I can get annoyed with all the clubbyness in wrock, in which certain bands can do no wrong and have fans gushing over them all the time. It can get a little too reminiscent of high school, with everyone sucking up to the popular kids. On the other hand, I enjoy the fact that wrock is the one and only musical scene in which I can be a rotten singer and still have fans. My view is that wrock should be entertaining in some way, shape, or form. If you can’t sing well, have good instrumentals. If you can’t have good instrumentals, have good lyrics. Do something entertaining enough that people will want to listen all the way through the song.

    I don’t want the wrock community to end up as a place where only the exceptionally talented make it. That’s what major record labels are for. But I also don’t want it to be a place where no one’s “allowed” to say that they think a band is overrated, or to make other criticisms.

    I think criticism depends a lot on what the band is trying to accomplish. If they’re trying to produce really great music and fail, that’s one thing, but if they’re just a few people messing around on someone’s old guitar and a tambourine for fun, that’s another.

    Reply
  33. Dinahsaur Avatar
    Dinahsaur

    I think I like what Steph had to say about the anonymity. I mean… I can see the perspective of it seeming like a coward’s way out, but I can also see that if this person was not writing anonymously, then it would be about them, not what they write anymore. So the anonymous thing doesn’t really bother me.

    Sure, I hate the fact that when people feel the need to express their honest opinions it has a major tendency to cause wild drama. To be frank, most of the time, the sheer fact that an opinion is remotely negative (even if said nicely, etc.), it causes drama. Which is just weird to me. I guess it’s just not how my mind works, so it blows me away the lengths to which people can grasp to be involved in drama. The way I see it, if they’re a friend, there should be no hard feelings. Like what Matt said about Paul giving him an honest opinion about Demons at the Helm. Wasn’t what Matt wanted to hear, but it was honest and (I’m assuming) well-put and did not cause hurt feelings or anything of the sort. That’s how I feel the world should operate. But sometimes that’s just not possible.

    Regarding the Wrock Snob specifically… I agree with Brad that the tagline is just for shock value. And I’m good with that. The review itself is not straight mean. Like Freya said, it’s not a “You’re stupid and your music sucks” review. It has specific details and criticisms. I may not personally agree with all of it, but that’s the beauty of opinions… not everyone has to agree! It’s something I love about living in a free-thinking society.

    So I think it’s going to be fun to follow the Wrock Snob. I know I can’t wait to see what comes up next!

    Reply
  34. Jacquelyn Avatar
    Jacquelyn

    Lena- I think non-musicians have the right to critisize, after all, they listen to it, so what makes musicians more qualified? Because we know technical terms and whatnot?

    And personally, I played in a prestigious band and was going to train classically like you, but I found that I do like the JFF’s over the classical stuff, but that’s just personaly preference. It’s not to say that their music isn’t amazing (because it is), but I would rather listen to JFF everyday than Sousa, even if his vocals are sub-par. There’s something I connect to more with them than I did with classical music.

    I still love to play Bass Clarinet and my other instruments too, and even plan to incorporate some of them onto my next CD.

    Sorry, VERY off topic.

    I agree with you, Jace. I had friends always tell me that my first songs were “SO AWESOME” when I first started.

    They weren’t. They were atrocious. I wasn’t even really singing. And I think I would of advanced quicker had someone called me out.

    I also love the way Steph worded everything. More concise than I was!

    Reply
  35. Lena Avatar
    Lena

    @Jacquelyn That’s exactly what I’m saying about JFF! I LOVE him. Also, that sentence was supposed to be deleted. One of my biggest pet peeves is non-musicians who pretend to know about music, so that’s where it came from. I’ve dealt with plenty of those guys, but this one does a good job 🙂

    Reply
  36. Jacquelyn Avatar
    Jacquelyn

    @Lena definately get where you’re coming from, no worries.

    Reply
  37. Dinahsaur Avatar
    Dinahsaur

    @Lena That’s why I’m a non-musician who makes it clear that I only know a certain amount about music. 😉

    Reply
  38. Lena Avatar
    Lena

    @Dinah also why I make it clear that I don’t play guitar, know how to write, or know a lot about nerdfighters 🙂

    Reply
  39. KateKintail Avatar
    KateKintail

    I’m just a fangirl, not a musician at all (despite years tied to my clarinet). The Hufflepuff in me finds it sad that anonymity is needed; one of the things I love about the wizarding community is how supportive and understanding it can be. Sure there’s drama and problems of status, which sucks big time, but you’re going to get that in any community. And even though it saddens me that he or she feels anonymity is necessary, it’s still Wrock Snob’s choice and I can completely respect that.

    I had a whole bit written up at this point about the choice to pick MOM over, say, a random band whose quality of music is not as good and probably deserves to be called out on it more. But I went back and hit the delete key. The point was to challenge and rock the boat a little, and as long as it isn’t mean and is done with intelligence and tact, I’m interested in what is to be said. I might not agree all the time (I don’t agree with the particular grade Onward and Upward received, because I don’t think it’s fair to rate an album almost completely based on previous attempts), but I want our community to be one where people aren’t afraid to say what they truly think as long as it’s not without basis, intentionally hurtful, or unjustly cruel.

    As a fan, I’m still going to think whatever I think about artists, songs, and albums based on my experiences knowing & listening to them and WRock Snob isn’t going to suddenly make me dislike songs I love. It’s just one person’s opinion. I suspect that no matter what, it will take more than just one blogger to take down the WRock world, though that’s not WRock Snob’s intention. It’s great to see the opinions from artists here and I appreciate that the WRockers here are open-minded enough about their craft and creations (I can appreciate how hard that is, especially after a story I’ve written received a harsh review or critique).

    If better music comes from this, that would make me one very happy fangirl!

    Reply
  40. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    I mostly agree with you Kate, except for one thing. You say that smaller bands with less quality should be called out.

    I thoroughly disagree. See, the whole point is to call out these big bands, with their big production, when they’re not up to par. If you record an album in your basement with audacity and it’s 45 minutes of playing the ukelele, yeah, it might not sound too good. But if you’re doing that in the first place, it’s because you’re an amateur. Amateurs don’t deserve to be critiqued at this level.

    MoM, however, who are (as has been noted) “professional musicians” have every right to be critiqued in this way. They have access to a horrendous amount of production tools, they’re competent musicians, and they professionally record each album. So if the music is shit, then they definitely need to be called out on it.

    Reply
  41. Grace Avatar
    Grace

    Wizard rock was never about great music – it has always been about the community, at least to me. So it’s totally fair that somebody call out the music; there’s plenty to call out. But I will say that when I started making wizard rock, I only did it because there was a clear attitude of support regardless of what you put out there. If people were always honest about what they thought of my music, I probably wouldn’t be making it. Some of my dearest friends are sweetly closed-mouthed about the music that I make, and I love them for it. <3 So I hope newer musicians to the community still feel the ability to put their art out there without being judged – that's so crucial.

    That said, I think objectivity is great and always enjoy seeing these sorts of discussions. I think it's funny what a huge response this is getting, given that it's just one review. Clearly this is a dialogue that needs to be happening, so kudos to whoever's opening the channels.

    Reply
  42. LunasCeiling Avatar
    LunasCeiling

    WrockSnob is the best thing to happen in wrockdom in a long time. Just look at the buzz!

    And I agree entirely with Jacquelyn: honest, no-punches-pulled criticism helps make us better. Sure, I like hearing fulsome praise…who doesn’t? But sometimes people can hear faults in your music that you can’t. Their perspective is less cluttered by preconceptions or emotional investiture in the music. It’s why even when you’re a good producer, it’s good to have another pair of educated ears listen to your mixes: they hear is as it IS, unfiltered by that ideal version YOU have going on in your head. That’s the value of critics to the performer.

    I also agree, in part, with Lena’s point about non-musician critics. There are areas in which their comments aren’t useful, primarily technical areas. That’s why I, an enthusiastic layperson in the field of theoretical physics, wouldn’t presume to comment on a technical aspect of a book by, say, Lisa Randall. I simply don’t know enough of what I’m talking about. Would I delve deeply into the technical aspects of someone’s CD, though? You bet (decades of pro experience…).

    However, I think there are so many areas in which a non-musician critic is as well or better qualified to comment. The overall emotional impact of a song…how the production sounds…the validity or poignancy of the lyrics…I can go on and on about aspects of music that have little to do with a theoretical analysis of the composition, a critique of the technical musicianship, etc. There’s a place for both musician and non-musician critics, in my view.

    I’m also kinda thinking I know who the author is…but imma keep it under my pointy hat until I’ve better convinced myself! =P

    DK Anderson

    Reply
  43. KateKintail Avatar
    KateKintail

    @Brad- I don’t think I said say smaller, I think I said said random.

    I MORE than agree regarding one’s amateur status. There are newer-to-the-scene bands like Kwikspell or The Buttermellows whose recording/sound quality capabilities leave something to be desired on early albums/EPs, but their lyrics and musical abilities are amazing and of high quality. I should have been more specific when I used the word “quality.” I definitely understand the difference between a young band without professional equipment and a bad band.

    And you make a very good point about not critiquing amateurs at the same level as more professional bands. But as most WRockers don’t make a living from WRock, it’s kind of hard to draw the line. Amateurs and/or WRockers new to the scene were not at all who I had in mind when I posted my comment.

    I think I’m totally in agreement with your points, I guess I just didn’t phrase it the way I meant to. Sorry!

    Reply
  44. Jarrod Avatar
    Jarrod

    LunasCeiling said: “I’m also kinda thinking I know who the author is…but imma keep it under my pointy hat until I’ve better convinced myself!”

    Freya already said who it is. It’s Mark Jennings!!!

    Reply
  45. Lena Avatar
    Lena

    I KNEW IT WAS MARK! XD

    Reply
  46. Penguin1124 Avatar
    Penguin1124

    I haven’t read through all of the comments yet, and I am going to, and then address some of those comments in MY next comment, BUT, I was actually just about to write an blog post on my blog about all of the faults with the Harry Potter Fandom (not that I am not completely obsessed with it, but we all know that there are faults with it). I was going to mostly address the issue of the division in the fandom, half of the post focuses on the fandom in general and the other half focusing on wizard rock. Reading this Question Tuesday (as well as all of the comments that I will soon read) has changed what I want to write about.
    When it comes to the Wrock Snob, I think it is absolutely horrendous that a person would post that anonymously. The thing is that most people on the internet post really mean and bitchy blogs like the one the wrock snob posted because they are afraid of what the backlash would be if he/she posted it using their real name. So anyway, I just wish that we were a community in which someone could post something like that without being afraid of the aforementioned backlash.

    Reply
  47. tina. Avatar
    tina.

    Wow, what a great discussion!
    I think this person(who I’m guessing is male-the way he writes, sorry if I am wrong) has every right in the world to say what he wants and as Russ kinda said, music critics tend to lean towards what they normally like. I know from reading reviews in fanzines I had my favorite critics and ones that I didn’t agree with. I thought this guy was rather objective and offered some positive thoughts. There are so many writers who hide behind a psuedonym and maybe that’s how the person feels they can remain honest.
    I got this fearful thought when I thought of him reviewing any of my dj Luna Lovegood stuff, but that’s alright I can handle it and since music is like my language of love and hate, i don’t think any review could ever make me stop 🙂
    In history, most of the best music comes from unprofessional musicians like Muddy Waters, just thought I’d throw that at ya.
    Reminds me of when the Horntails still had their MySpace page, would you believe that some people wrote really nasty things to an 8 year old boy?
    There’s a difference between constructive criticism and scum. I don’t think this guy is scummy at all.
    Is it necessary? I think it’s inspirational. I hope for more people to put out reviews. It’s a part of how this will continue to grow.
    🙂

    Reply
  48. wrocknquidditch Avatar
    wrocknquidditch

    This is going to be kind of long…I have a lot to say…lol.

    I have a less-popular band, and I really respect what WrockSnob is doing. I may not agree completely with everything that he/she says, but I’m happy that they are speaking their mind. If someone feels that way, they should be allowed to say it. (And they SHOULD be able to say it without fear of backlash).

    I think there are some very positive aspects to the WrockSnob blog.

    1) Look at all of this discussion! I don’t think any of us are planning to walk away from this discussion hating each other, but here we are, some of us respectfully disagreeing with others…this is the kind of discussion that allows us to grow as a community. We’re not perfect…no musical community is…and these are the kinds of things that make us stronger in the end.

    2) Did you notice that WrockSnob offered up alternative bands while writing the review? It may be a negative review, but a casual wrock fan could take the opportunity to check out the other -similar- bands…thus broaden their horizons.

    I think if you like a band, you’re going to keep listening to them no matter what a review says. I personally think Ministry is catchy and fun and they seem like really nice guys…but I also agree with WrockSnob that their other albums were better.

    (Tangent…) Have you guys read the @Wrocksnob Twitter? I can’t remember if it was there or in the comments on the review where he/she said something along the lines of “The grade of F is harsh, but it’s relative to their previous B+’s”… It’s important to keep that kind of thing in perspective; especially before anyone casts stones.

    3) It gets us musicians thinking more critically about the music we make before we put it out there if there is a possibility that it could get a negative review. For some of us smaller bands, it’s hard to even get anyone to LISTEN to our music, let alone review it (one of the many things I appreciated about The wRadar before it closed). And, for us smaller bands who struggle with that, a bad review could potentially oblitterate us. It’s discouraging enough to put in a ton of effort and no one seems to give a flip. BUT, this is a positive thing. Yeah, I could look at it like “Oh crap, now I have to make sure everything is perfect” or I could look at it like “Awesome, now I can take these criticisms I see of these other bands and apply them to myself, make my own music better, and grow musically.”

    I (as of August) will have 2 music degrees and have been a musician for most of my life, and this is the same mentality that those in the classical world take from a masterclass. The “expert” comes in, listens to someone play, everyone else watches and listens to the “expert’s” comments…the performer gets a critique and everyone else has a list of things to go home and practice.

    I don’t know if WrockSnob intends to review the “smaller” bands, but it doesn’t have to be a big scary thing…we can make WrockSnob’s negative reviews a very positive thing. We ALSO don’t know if every review is going to be negative. That’s what it seems like now, but I’m sure WrockSnob has warm fuzzy feelings about some wrock music or else he/she wouldn’t be a wrock fan.

    —-
    ALSO… it’s interesting for me to watch what’s happening here with WrockSnob, and what happened a few days ago with wRockRevolution before they disappeared.

    I’ve been writing my Master’s thesis on WizRock for a long time, and before that I was a casual fan…and part of the content of my document does address some of the…. “less happy” aspects of our community. I’m not calling anyone out, since anything negative in my thesis is totally anonymized…but it is written there. I have a scholarly responsibility to call it like I see it…and despite the overwhelmingly positive experiences that I’ve personally had in wizard rock, I have to say SOME negative things about the community.

    That is why I was so glad when Dinah posted the link to my questionnaire a couple weeks ago – so that I could make absolutely sure that other people were experiencing these “negative” things and have over 100 participants’ answers to draw from for my evidence.

    I’ve been absolutely terrified that once I’m done with my document, someone will read it (because many of the people who were so gracious in helping me along the way have asked to read it) and then I’ll get kicked out of the community or something. I’ve been assured by my closest wizard friends that that will not happen….but for over a year I’ve felt like a big traitor and a guilty dog. I don’t want to hurt anyone, but I have written and am still writing and am required to write some things that “you just don’t talk about.”

    The last thing I’m out to do is damage the people who helped me and the community I love with all my heart, but that’s the obligation with academic writing…you have to cover ALL sides. Most people who seem to write academically about wrock just avoid the controversial topics, or are doing a degree that allows them to avoid them, but in order to contribute something new to the growing collection of Wizard Rock research from the ethnomusicological perspective, one almost has to cross that boundary…which I think I have.

    It’s something I’ve really been struggling with…and the fact that I have to struggle with it just supports my argument. I’m on the fence as to whether or not I feel better about that or not, after this. It seems like people are being pretty level-headed. My writing is nowhere near as inflammatory as WrockSnob’s….but WrockSnob also has the luxury of anonymity.

    And now that I’ve gone on about all the tangents I can for now, I end my incredibly long comment. 🙂

    Reply
  49. Abby Avatar
    Abby

    Grace’s post = TRUTH

    My own music SUCKS but I have SO much fun making it that I don’t care if people actually like it or not. If it puts a smile one someone’s face, I’m happy.
    I’m pretty neutral to all of this otherwise. I see the fandom as an ocean, complete with regular tides, the occasional storm and all the other neat oceany references I can make.
    We can either sit on the beach and watch it, we can go out and try to conquer it, or we can go surfing and enjoy everything it gives us, hard knocks and triumphs alike.
    I am hanging ten, bruddahs. Y’all do whatever makes you happy.
    Aloha.

    Reply
  50. The Wrock Snob... AND NO ONE ELSE Avatar
    The Wrock Snob… AND NO ONE ELSE

    So, woah, these are a lotta comments. I’ll just put everything into one mega comment. Brace yourselves.

    Whompy – First of all, using “skullfucking” as an adjective = win. Secondly, I am interested to hear your counter-arguments – I’ll just have to write up the review first! Lastly, a note about the last couple of sentences. Do I have a certain lack of bravery? Yes, I’m no stinkin’ Gryffindor! A lack of conviction? No, but I can see your point. I don’t really fear a huge backlash against my “real” internet self, mostly I fear my “real” self distracting from the points I try to make. It’s true that part of why I chose to be anonymous was to avoid some hate, but mostly, it’s to try to keep the Wrock Snob site in its own sort of separate bubble, so discussion can just be about points raised and so on. I mostly fear a large amount of the comments being “I don’t see YOU doing anything better”, which might be a valid point (though according to Robert’s Rules of Order, “that shit would never fly in a REAL debate”) the first time it’s made, but I love the level of discourse going on now, and would like to keep it up there.

    Alli – I had never really thought too much about the anonymous thing to be honest, I find this whole discussion very interesting. But I think what the article was saying is what does it say about this community if someone feels they need to go anon to give honest criticism? Also, I really try to give honest critiques, but not be mean for the sake of being mean. I try to make all my negative comments be centered on the music, and I welcome people’s responses on how well I’ve achieved that.

    Freya – Wait, I claimed I don’t know MoM? When did that happen? I don’t, but I still don’t remember that. Hmm… Or right, when I said I didn’t know their names. Well, there’s like 5 of them now, and that’s 4 too many names to remember!

    Jarrod – That’s pretty much it exactly. Also, I have seen very few negative reviews (plenty of negative comments, but not many full-on reviews) in wrockdom, and decided to get my opinion out there. But I do plan to to review stuff I like – for example, I will eventually be reviewing MoM’s previous two albums – but starting with a negative review of the album that swept WRPCAs seemed like a good way to get people talking.

    I’m gonna jump in here and just say something about the discussion of who I am. No, I am not Mark Jennings. Do I wish I was? HELL YES. I could entice woodland creatures with nothing more than my voice, and then I could eat them! Hooray!

    Arodhwen – I already responded to the first chunk of your comment over on my blog, I just wanted to say something about WRPCA voting. I know that many people haven’t heard of a lot of the bands that were nom’d this year (and part of that is awesome – the diversity between this year and 06 is unbelievable, though there are admittedly a fuckton more bands now), so that’s why I liked to other bands with awesome songs, in the hopes that people will click the little links and be exposed to even more awesomeness that wrock has to offer.

    Lena – I would love to review “Tales From Beedle the Bard”, and I can probably do so next week, probably Friday. Currently, the schedule is Monday = Reviews, Wednesday = Thoughts About Wrockdom In General, Friday = Grab Bag, which could be a review, or a picture of a particularly delicious chocolate cake, or whatnot. Hmmm… you make an interesting point about people who never made music before feeling like they can be accepted in this community – I absolutely agree and I know I’ve seen it happen. However, as you said, the MoM boys have been making music professionally since long before wizard rock, so I think it’s fair to be really honest with them. I’m not going to just go after little bands because they’re easy targets, but if a smaller band asks me to review their album, and I don’t like it, I’ll say as much. But I will definitely keep that sort of thing in mind when critiquing bands. Of course, this gets us into the interesting quandary of if there is ever a time when flat out honesty, all the time, is acceptable. Is honesty really the best policy? But does false praise weaken people? These are questions that I have absolutely no answer for, but I might sit down and hammer out my thoughts for a Wednesday article some day. I do have something to say about non-musicians judging musicians – isn’t that the basis of the entire industry of review? Does the fact that Roger Ebert doesn’t make movies make him any less qualified to review them? I admit, I’m sort of a pleb when it comes to music – I have a friend who’s majoring in music, and he talks at me nonstop about suspensions and major fifths and textures and stuff like that, and most of it goes straight over my head, though I like to think some of it rubs off on me. But ultimately, I’m firmly of the belief that nobody’s opinion is more valid than anyone else’s, as long as all parties involved have done adequate amounts of research, and with all the wrock and music in general that I listen to, I feel that I’ve done adequate amounts of research. Also, I’d love to hear your opinions, and you can email me at wrocksnob@gmail.com

    Steph – The whole skullfucking tagline was just a spur of the moment decision, and was mostly born out of that fear of backlash and stuff, and me thinking that I would be flamed until sundown. I have actually been very pleasantly surprised by the very civil response, and the great discussion going on here. And yeah, Brad, nothing quite gets people’s attention like the word “skullfucking”.

    Russ – “Skull massaging wrock” just made me laugh really loudly.

    Marauder – Oh God, I really hope I don’t perpetuate a meritocratic wrock scene. But I feel like MoM is the type of band that really wants to be the best that they can be, and the level of detail in my critique is not one that I would use for smaller bands that are just having some fun and making a bit of music. However, if a small band asks for a thorough review, I will of course oblige.

    Let me just conclude by saying thanks to everyone for checking out the site, and I’m overwhelmed by the response generated, especially how civil everyone has been. I’m really interested to see how my article tomorrow will go over, and either Friday or Monday, expect a review of Demons at the Helm!

    Reply
  51. ian Avatar
    ian

    You know, who the hell really cares what this person has to say? This is so 2006.

    Reply
  52. Nate Avatar
    Nate

    I think this is great, even if only for getting some good debate going.

    I have no problem with the author choosing to remain anonymous. I certainly would be reluctant to voice a negative (even if it’s polite) opinion on a very popular band on the intarwebs. It may seem a little cowardly but if you want to do something like this without becoming a pariah it’s probably the only way to go. Sad but true.

    On the other hand one of the great things about this community is the friendliness and openness. It’s probably the only musical sub-culture I’ve come across where people can feel totally comfortable picking up an instrument, writing some silly songs, and actually playing them to an audience who will try their damnedest to appreciate it (or at least super-duper supportive and kind). That’s what I like about it. The downside of this is that it makes any sort of honest criticism difficult.

    I say if you’re a band that is taking yourself seriously, with a lot of fans and a good amount of income coming from cd’s and merch, then your music should be subject to analysis, negative or positive, should someone feel inclined to level that criticism. But if you’re just some amateurs playing songs for fun then I’m not sure it’s warranted there…Of course I happen to agree with some of the things said in this review. If it were a scathing review of a band I was a big fan of I may be singing a different tune.

    I guess I’m just echoing previous sentiments, but it’s certainly an interesting conundrum! Blog on, Wrocksnob.

    Reply
  53. tina. Avatar
    tina.

    @Ian, is it safe to say we both agree that opinions are like a-holes, everyone’s got one 🙂

    Reply
  54. Freya Avatar
    Freya

    Ian, the same could be said about what anyone says. It’s relevant to the community, so a lot of people feel it is relevant to them.

    Reply
  55. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    See, Ian, it’s comments like that that make me lose faith in this community.

    Why SHOULDN’T anyone care what this person has to say? You should value their opinion just as much as anyone else’s, possibly more, considering the insightful and well-written manner in which it’s presented.

    And the musicians care! If you’d bothered to read the responses, ALL of the musicians care about what this person is saying, because they need constructive criticism in order to improve.

    So there you go.

    Reply
  56. wrocknquidditch Avatar
    wrocknquidditch

    But at the same time, we should not attack Ian for his opinion, either.

    Reply
  57. ian Avatar
    ian

    Freya, I agree. I’m really not in a tolerant or patient mood right now. I just think the author is a little late in the game. The artist, by now, have become well established and should feel confident in their own work. As for the listeners, they either like it or they don’t. Ok, everyone have fun now. 🙂 Cheers!

    Reply
  58. tina. Avatar
    tina.

    That’s right no picking on Ian! I kinda think Ian’s trying to offer his opinion to lighten the mood. If you get a bad review, how is that going to change what you love to do? The worst that could happen is that you learn tune your guitar…like I was told once that i needed to buy a tuner, “A BIG FREAKIN’ TUNER”
    it took awhile, but i finally started tuning my guitar, unless lena’s around-then i hand it to her 🙂

    Reply
  59. Jace Avatar
    Jace

    It’s never to late to critique someones work. Whether they’ve been around for years or not. Just because someone’s “confident” in their music, doesn’t mean they put out good albums every time. People get busy, or lazy, or both.

    I mean, IMO, early Bob Dylan is best. But his christmas album he released last year was complete shit. Pretty much because what little voice he did have, he’s almost completely lost over the years. But just because he’s Bob Dylan, been around for almost 50 years, confident in his work, doesn’t mean I, or any music critic can’t critique it. That’s just silly.

    (btw, i should mention, even though Dylans album is not very good, i still love it, Bob has a special place in my heart…)

    Reply
  60. tina. Avatar
    tina.

    Yeah, I see your point Jace like the 80’s and DeeDee Ramone’s(DeeDee KIng) rap album, ouch-in a good way 🙂

    Reply
  61. Russ Avatar
    Russ

    “If you get a bad review, how is that going to change what you love to do?”

    Well…. in a way, yeah. One thing to really keep in mind about wizard rock is that SO MANY “bands” are just a single person. And when that happens, you really don’t have a sounding board when you’re writing. I’ve happily shared demos and rough songs with other musicians in the community to get their feedback, and it helped. I had another instance where I showed a former bandmate 4 songs and he barely liked 2 of them, hated the others, and gave me constructive feedback that helped immensely.

    I don’t think anyone’s going to quit playing if someone doesn’t like their songs. If that was the case, some of us (myself included) never would have gotten past our first 3 songs. But REAL VALID CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is a very powerful thing. I don’t think anyone sets out to sound exactly the same, and play at the same level, as time goes on. You want to improve. Again – I think any musician would MUCH rather have someone say “quit using the auto tune and same 3 drum loops over and over again” than “ZOMG I luuuuuuuuuuurve UR new song!!111 UR best in WIZROCK!!!”

    Reply
  62. JenTerr Avatar
    JenTerr

    I just want to point out that these types of critical conversations happen all the time. They just don’t tend to be public. I think it might be fair to say that I have never met a group of wiz rock friends that didn’t critique bands in the community & their music or strategies for doing this or that in the community. Like many are saying here, we all have opinions and for the most part – we all voice them. Where ever we feel comfortable doing so.

    From my experience, stuff like this is usually about balance. Do we want a community that is highly critical of every band and all music? Probably not. Do we want a community where any differing points of view are shunned and critique is not welcome? Also probably not. It’s about finding balance. And that, kids, is the tricky part.

    Reply
  63. ian Avatar
    ian

    Jace, you are correct…I heard some of that BD Christmas album…it did suck. I guess what I’m trying to say is let’s not let an anonymous blogger be judge and jury over all that is good…Let us keep it in perspective. Its one person’s (HE-WHO-CANNOT-BE-NAMED”) opinion, and that is all.

    Reply
  64. Dinahsaur Avatar
    Dinahsaur

    @Penguin – “The thing is that most people on the internet post really mean and bitchy blogs like the one the wrock snob posted because they are afraid of what the backlash would be if he/she posted it using their real name.”

    I just wanted to point out that this post from WrockSnob was neither mean nor bitchy.

    @WrockSnob I’m glad you stopped by and are enjoying this discussion! I think part of why the backlash of you starting your blog is not what you expected is because we, as a community, have already faced situations like that. Granted, they were in odd ways, but other people and opinions have already caused the major backlashes and we’ve learned some tolerance since then.

    Reply
  65. Whompy Avatar
    Whompy

    WrockSnob said: “I don’t really fear a huge backlash against my “real” internet self, mostly I fear my “real” self distracting from the points I try to make.”

    Excellent point. 🙂 If I manage to wrangle your identity from Freya, I’ll keep it a secret. Can’t wait for your review of Demons! Feel free to rip it apart if that’s your inclination. All that matters to me is that I accomplished what I was aiming to accomplish when I wrote and recorded it, and I’m proud of that. But I never expected everyone to love it. I recently had a great discussion about metawizardrock with Paul D and I’m particularly curious to hear your thoughts on the meta or not-meta aspects of Demons. Just keep in mind that the album follows a specific narrative arch, beginning with the formation of The Whomping Willows and ending with my falling in love with Lauren. Everything in between is part of that story, and that’s what makes it a wizard rock album, in my opinion. But your opinion may differ and to that I say: whateva! Bring it on! 😀

    Lena: I’ve been writing music and playing in bands for 15 years, and I’ve found that whether or not someone is classically trained makes almost no impact on whether or not they’re an excellent musician and performer. In fact, in the case of rock n’ roll (which is really all I care about), I’ve found that being classically trained and/or being too focused on technical skill can often be a negative thing (see: 99% of jam bands). In order to command a stage, you have to have confidence in what you’re doing and your music has to be interesting in some way. Mark Jennings isn’t a great vocalist just because he has excellent tone, pitch and range. He’s a great vocalist because he sings like he really means it. JFF might not be an excellent vocalist from a traditional standpoint, but he’s one of my favorite vocalists in wizard rock because 1) there’s nobody else like him and 2) he really believes in what he’s doing. Regardless of all this, everyone has different tastes, likes, dislikes, whatever, and I guess the traditional “good” has never really appealed to me. My point is that just because you’re classically trained doesn’t really make you a better judge of what’s good than anybody else. Ultimately it’s the fans’ opinions that matter most, and our report cards are our record sales. haha. As for MoM, as much as I do like them as individuals, I’ve never been a fan of their music because I don’t like boy bands, and that’s what they are. It doesn’t mean they’re not talented, but again: art appreciation is subjective. We all have our own tastes. My favorite band is Pavement. 🙂

    Jace: Great points!

    Reply
  66. Russ Avatar
    Russ

    I’m going to ask this in all honesty – if the first “skullfuckingly honest” review was that of Hollow Godric’s “Ghosts of the Hunt” or Alohomora’s “Wrockstock and Two Smokin’ Wands”, does this discussion about everything take on this life?

    Or is it more due to the fact that the first review was a critical one of MoM, who garnered numerous awards last week and are viewed as one of the Big Name Bands in wrock?

    My honest answer is – no, it does not.

    Reply
  67. Freya Avatar
    Freya

    Russ: I’ve been wanting to have a conversation like this for awhile, so as long as WrockSnob followed me on twitter (how I found this) with a Hollow Godric review, I would’ve posted it as a discussion point. I’m not sure as many people would have known the basis for the review, but I am sure that these comments all apply regardless.

    So, yeah. I totally agree with you. 😀

    Reply
  68. Whompy Avatar
    Whompy

    Nate said: “I say if you’re a band that is taking yourself seriously, with a lot of fans and a good amount of income coming from cd’s and merch, then your music should be subject to analysis, negative or positive, should someone feel inclined to level that criticism.”

    Totally, 100% agree with this. I’ve only ever been competitive with myself, and my goal has been to continue to outdo myself with every new album. The fans have essentially supported my lifestyle, fed me, and paid my rent and bills for three years now; the last thing I’m going to do is release a subpar album and benefit from their loyalty when I don’t really deserve it. Every big band in wizard rock should be striving to make their best music. If they’re not, then in my opinion they’re just cashing in on a gimmick.

    Reply
  69. Whompy Avatar
    Whompy

    PS. And my last comment should not be taken as a statement that anyone is currently cashing in on a gimmick. 🙂

    Reply
  70. Pinhead Avatar
    Pinhead

    Great art/philosophy/music/literature/science/life doesn’t happen in a vacuum surrounded by a bunch of sycophants who only serve to stroke your egos. Debate and disagreements are the foundation of healthy discussions that encourage the growth and spread of culture. All of us agreeing with each other and patting each other on the back serves only stale stagnation. If you’re constantly being told how good and perfect your work is, why would you seek to develop new ideas, better sounds, more inventive algorithms?

    As for anonymity… WrockSnob isn’t really a truly anonymous figure. Yes, it’s a pseudonym. Yes, WrockSnob has made clear that they have another persona in the community. But they aren’t ultimately hiding in a dark tower, swooping down onto other forums to make their criticsm. They have their own space, and they’ve given you many means of commenting and responding directly to them. They are operating as nearly in the open as anyone can on the internet. If this were 2004 WrockSnob would be practically giving away _too_ much information. Okay, we don’t know their myspace page or home mailing address and can’t look up their GPS coordinates on google maps. True anonymity means having no means of reciprocity, no ability to contact or identify the originating party.

    The choice for this person or persons to craft a new persona on the internet, thus to shield their established persona from whatever flames and drama they assumed their commentary would bring down on them is not a matter of their integrity. The integrity to say, I want to make it clear these negative reviews are not a personal attack from one friend to another, but rather a hopefully constructive criticism, is an admirable thing. I assume WrockSnob’s decision to do this from a new persona is born out of the feeling that the air of the community is one that cannot take deeply critical reviews without resorting to witless anger or despair; that is, “you disagree with my opinion and thus you are my enemy and we can have no further peaceful discussions.” The fact that a member of the community feels that they need to resort to using a pseudonym so that they can properly express their opinion is not a question of that person’s integrity, but of the community’s integrity.

    Reply
  71. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    Oh, you guys are just great. It’s this kind of discussion that honestly reminds me of everything I love about the fandom. How everyone from around the world can come together here and discuss something, adding our shared experiences to produce a positive outcome. Really, it’s amazing.

    This is our fandom’s greatest ability, truly: to bring people together. Wizard rock is the arbiter of this ability, as it brings people together like nothing else in this fandom has before.

    Reply
  72. Denni Towle Avatar
    Denni Towle

    Well I for one love completely honest reviews of cds. If anyone was to review my music for instance, they would probably hate it from a musical standpoint. But alas I do not care, if they reviewed it that means they listened to it and I still put a message across. People buy my music and listen to it, whether they like or not is up to them. I just want to be heard, and after 5 years and 10 cds I have been heard. Personally I love the way the MoM does their music, I love the way Matt does his music, I love they way most bands do their music. I don’t listen to most religiously but I appreciate what they have to say. So will I agree with the reviews that this person does…not always, but I appreciate that they are doing it.

    Reply
  73. LunasCeiling Avatar
    LunasCeiling

    Totally OT, Denni, but “Slytherock” is a gem!

    Back on topic, this has been a terrific discussion. As has been previously stated, this community is capable of addressing and discussing points on which there are vastly different views without having things descend into flamewars and (too much) drama. Do y’all have any IDA of how rare that is in the wide world of musical genres?

    Reply
  74. Richard Avatar
    Richard

    I’m really late to this party but I do have something I’d like to say on this.

    As a very late comer to Wizard Rock and production – I would personally feel unfair to be graded with the same pen that grades MoM, Whompy, Lena, etc… I am extremely new – I only started learning and practicing at electronic music production 6 months ago.

    That said, I don’t have a problem with this type of review. The anonymity is almost certainly a necessity. It’s human nature to get defensive and sometimes a little butt hurt when something you love is criticized for whatever reason. If people take a moment to step back, take a deep breath and realize that it’s just a matter of subjective opinion – they can chill out and relax.

    I happen to love the Star Wars prequels but you do not find me writing angry notes and diatribes to the millions of fans who hate them with fire of forty fiendfyres.

    That said, I think as long as people aren’t too cruel and malicious in their wording, basically showing some artistic respect in that regard – we should all be fine.

    Reply
  75. Ravenclaw2313 Avatar
    Ravenclaw2313

    I’m a little late to this party. Not that I wasn’t here earlier but reading all these comments at work takes a long time. Not to mention that while I’m typing this more comments are surely being made.

    On the question of anonymity I have no problem with it as far as WrockSnob goes. Besides is it really anonymous? I’m Ravenclaw2313 and unless you happen to know my real name I am anonymous too. It’s a persona, and they are making it a reachable one. Sure you might not know the person’s name but you can comment to them and email them and tweet at them so it’s not like they are hiding much. Maybe you can’t egg their house (not that I want to mind you) but you could send them emails and have ways to contact them.

    Also along the same lines because this blog is a constructive criticism I don’t mind that there is no name attached to it. They aren’t using the persona to blatantly hate on MoM or anyone else. It’s the anonymous “Your so stupid. Why would anyone listen to you. This music sucks.” that I can’t stand (the your instead of you’re is intentional). I’m a firm believer that if all you want to do is hate on people you should have the guts to comment yourself or just shove it. Criticism is different and as I said before WrockSnob is reachable should I feel the need to disagree with their opinion.

    On the subject of the review itself I thought it was very well written. The tone was civil and the critiques were specific and relevant (not just it was terrible, but actually why). If you know me you know I adore MoM as a band and as individuals, but that doesn’t mean I have animosity towards WrockSnob. I don’t particularly agree, but I also acknowledge that actual musical makeup of songs is something I know nothing about. I like songs because I can sing along with them or they get stuck in my head. Lyrics are something that I do feel strongly about though (I love writing lyrics) and so I found those particular critiques interesting. I will be interested in what he/she has to say about Demons at the Helm. It is one of my favorite records because I think the lyrics are amazing, and lyrics are what draw me in.

    Mallory V. (just so you don’t think I’m being anonymous)

    Reply
  76. wrocknquidditch Avatar
    wrocknquidditch

    I don’t think anyone has to worry about a malicious review or harmful intent from WrockSnob. I don’t get the impression that he/she is “out to get” anybody or anything…and I think that seems to be the consensus.

    Like I mentioned in my previous comment and as others have mentioned before, if you like a band, you will like them regardless of one contrary review. If you are a band and you like what you do, you’ll keep doing it regardless of one contrary review.

    I think many of us are in the wrock game because we want to be. And there are many of us “little guys” out there who would really like the recognition that the top tier gets, but we’re not going to change what we’re about and what we do to please the masses. And I think it’s safe to say that many musicians wouldn’t CHANGE what they do on the basis of a review. We all have our strong and weak points, and we all have our own set of musical priorities. I’m personally learning to improve my production quality. It’s important to pay attention to constructive criticism to continue musical growth…but that doesn’t mean that we change ourselves completely to appease someone.

    I don’t think WrockSnob is intending to make it harder for any band to come up in the community. I don’t think that the environment is any less-safe for new musicians. Having a critical eye on our music isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and I think that individually we will all continue to support each other. As we have seen, many of the more-established wrock musicians have requested a review by WrockSnob.

    Heck, guys…just look at some historical music reviews. Beethoven’s 9th (with the “Ode to Joy” chorus and everything) got SCATHING reviews. People hated it… but now western civilization sees it as a masterpiece. A lot of Beethoven’s work was critiqued rather harshly…and many composers (if not EVERY composer) experienced that. The 20th Century American composer Charles Ives quit music as a profession because he wanted to write his music the way he wanted it without having to depend on a good review…which allowed him to write some of the most incredible pieces…(he’s an interesting dude, for those of you who don’t know him. A lot of his music is based around music as it is remembered…music as it sounds in the memory…very cool). And yeah, he still got bad reviews from critics and his musicians (who just didn’t get it, or didn’t have the virtuosity to pull it off), and yeah, it got to him, but he still did his music his way. And he’s famous for it now…comparatively.

    Tough reviews are a good thing for musicians. Once we get past the “hurt feelings” that come along with reading something negative about onself or one’s favorite band, there’s a lot that we can get out of them if we choose to.

    Reply
  77. tina. Avatar
    tina.

    I like all the Beethoven talk 🙂 I think it’s interesting that this discussion has made the reviewer rather popular, will this discussion make his opinions more valid? It makes me think that some people will read his reviews to agree and others will be more interested in the CDs he doesn’t like.

    Reply
  78. Jade Avatar
    Jade

    Okay, here’s my view on this.

    I think that usually the music one makes has some kind of a meaning to the maker. They might express their emotions. They might work really hard to get the result they want to get. They might appreciate the process of making the music (the songwriting, the recording, the editing etc). For me the process is sometimes more important than the result, or actually the process and feeling good about it affects my view of the result (for example, if I feel like I did the best I could with the singing, or it was fun to record and edit, I consider the “mistakes” being part of that, and that’s why sometimes I want to keep them there). This personal value the music has to its maker doesn’t change, no matter what others think about it.

    I believe that most music makers face the difficulty of balancing between the audience’s wishes and their own views, and their own views may also change. I admit that I have mixed feelings about my creations at times.

    There are so many things to appreciate in music. For musicians and the listeners, it’s not just about the “pure music”. Even if it was, there are many opinions of what sounds good and what doesn’t. A person who values the heavily edited, smoothed, sound-rich music (like what MoM makes) likes that kind of music and probably makes that sort of music. Others value a more natural sound and that’s why they critique the lack of it.

    So any kind of review is good as long as it gives reasons to the critique or praise. That way we know what kind of things the writer values in music and what doesn’t. If we disagree with their values, then naturally we disagree with their critique or praise. And there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a fact of life that we value different things in music.

    Critique can be used to improve your music of course. But that depends on whether you as musician value the ideas in the critique.

    As for friendships, you could critique your friend’s creations by explaining that you don’t value the kind of things they value in music (like heavy editing or lyrics that are too simple) and that’s why you think it’s not good. But you could say (if they already don’t know) that you appreciate the fact that your friend does the kind of music he or she wants to do, and of course you want them to do what they like to do. I think that the greatest proof of a true friend is that even if they personally hate something you do, they still want you to do it because they know you love to do it. And that’s why encouragement and critique can coexist.

    Wrock consists of so many musical genres and the themes of the songs vary so much, that I believe those who really like every wrock band and song out there are pretty rare. By “like” I mean your personal preferences in music. Being supportive and positive to wrock in general is a different thing.

    Reply
  79. Heather Avatar
    Heather

    I mean, I feel like this blog has every right to exist, and if this person wants to do this, then more power to them. Go for it, knock yourself out, have fun, whatever.

    I just don’t see – why – you’d want to spend your time doing it.

    I love wizard rock, and I love the community. Really. But if I’m looking for musical quality, well, it’s not the first place I’d go. Even in my favorite rock bands, sometimes the recording quality isn’t great, or the vocals are bad or there are a few wrong notes in attempted harmonies, or the obviously computer generated drum-loops drive me up the wall. It’s part of the DIY spirit of wrock. And it’s something we put up with because I don’t think any of us are going in looking for huge musical masterpieces. We’re just looking for something fun. Sure, the better the music is the better people like it, but traditionally the people that do best in the scene are the people that put the most into it, musical talent being a secondary factor. I’m ok with that, and I think most people are ok with that. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here.

    So sure, go ahead and say all the albums suck if you want. If that’s how you get your kicks, go for it. But why?

    This sounds about as dumb to me as the girl I met at wrockstock who wanted to start a wizard rock version of Perez Hilton.

    Also, as someone who regularly reads and writes video game reviews, the reviewer praises a couple of songs on the album but still gives it an F? Scores and text ain’t matchin up there, kid.

    Reply
  80. Bri Avatar
    Bri

    It just makes me sad. It’s just another facet of the gratuitous exclusivity and baseless self-importance inundating the fandom — not just wizard rock, but almost all aspects of the HP fandom — and shutting out the people who play in it for fun.

    Combine the tone with the anonymity, and it’s not an offer of constructive criticism. It’s a solipsistic declaration that the author’s opinion is better than those of the fans who voted in the WRPCAs because (s)he deems it so.

    Reply
  81. Heather Avatar
    Heather

    Also, I’d like to add two things.

    First, a lot of people seem to think that this is coming from a good place on behalf of the writer, in an attempt to give constructive criticism. While I appreciate that the review did give specific feedback, I’m not sure that the author is intending to be helpful. Look at the twitter for that. Location: making fun of you. Description: skullfucking our sense of community. It doesn’t sound productive to me… sounds like stirring shit to stir shit. Trying to get a rise out of people.

    Hey look, it worked!

    Secondly, my previous comment has the potential to be more offensive than the blog really, because it can be read like “hey, wizard rock is a novelty! it’s not real music!” If you read it that way, understand that’s not my intention at all. There are tons of really talented wizard rockers and great music is coming out of this scene. What I meant by it is that I do tend to judge it with different standards than I would a commercial recording, and I think that we as a community have a different standard of what makes great wrock and what doesn’t than specifically focusing on the music itself. And I like that.

    Reply
  82. ian Avatar
    ian

    I really appreciate Jade, Heather, and Bri’s comments. This is the vibe I’m digging. 🙂

    Reply
  83. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    Whoooaaa, did you guys even read what had been said before you came along?

    Why all of this senseless negativity? Listen, the point is that artists strive to do better. If you don’t believe me, look at ALL of the artists who have commented here. They WANT the constructive criticism that a blog like this can provide.

    These people are musicians just like any other. They want to be treated like musicians. They create music, right? That makes them musicians, and thus they can be subject to review just like anyone else.

    Like what the hell is this about “baseless self-importance?” Are you serious? I think this blog does the exact opposite- it knocks people down a few pegs, which is good for everyone, I think we can all agree.

    As for anonymity? We’ve covered this extensively. It’s because the author doesn’t want to get crucified, as would obviously happen if people like you got hold of who they really are. Your closemindedness is what perpetuates the ills of this fandom, Bri.

    The author is in no way claiming that their opinion is superior. They invite the readers to disagree in the comments. They’re creating a setting for discussion, not trying to force their opinions down everyones throat as you seem to be implying.

    Really, you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and maybe have a look through the discussion that’s been had here. Because you’re the minority. The musicians all seem to think this is a great idea, and considering that they’re the very subjects of this blog, I’d say that it’s quite important to take into account what they have to say.

    They’re not approaching this negatively. They’re not blathering on about how messed up the fandom is and how anonymous bloggers posting unfavourable reviews are the root of all evil. They’re saying “Hey, sure, if it improves the quality of our work, it’s a good thing!”

    II just don’t think you’re being very open-minded at all. That’s my opinion, and I’m entitled to it, just as the Wrock Snob is entitled to theirs.

    For those of you wondering- no, I’m not the Wrock Snob (though that would be a masterful play on his part- If I were him.)

    Reply
  84. Bri Avatar
    Bri

    If you want to improve your work, good on you. I’m not speaking for the musicians; I’m not one, and I suppose that’s influenced my opinion and makes me wonder — if the criticism is truly constructive, why not offer it to the artist?

    I’m speaking evidently as a victim of illegal magic, and I absolutely take issue when someone starts anything by dumping on fans. Since you asked about the baseless self-importance, then I’ll go a step further — what the hell gives him/her the right? Speaking of, since we’re celebrating everyone’s right to an opinion, I’m sure you’ll forgive me if I doubt the writer’s altruistic motives.

    Reply
  85. BradAusrotas Avatar
    BradAusrotas

    Yes feel free to doubt their motives, even though there’s absolutely zero evidence to do so. No one’s forcing you to believe anything about them.

    And the criticism IS being offered to the artist. It’s also being published. That’s how reviews work.

    Obviously it was a joke to establish the nature of the blog: it’s critical, yes, but it doesn’t exist solely for the purpose of ruining everyone’s fun. If the author was just a troll, why would they bother to try and communicate their opinions in such a thought-out manner? They’d just “dump” all over the artist. Why go through all of the trouble? They obviously had no idea it would take off like this, so that clears their motives as far as I’m concerned. Also, you can read what the author had to say directly here in the comments, and if you think they’re lying, that’s your problem.

    As for the right? Everyone has the right to an opinion, and the right to express it. It’s called freedom of speech. It’s governed by limits, of course, but you’ll find that the Wrock Snob is WELL within those limits.

    Reply
  86. The Hufflepuffs! Avatar
    The Hufflepuffs!

    I don’t think it’s right to be afraid of telling your opinions and I do definitely agree the community sugarcoats a lot. I’m sure some of the comments I’ve gotten from people about my wrock were halfhearted. It’s a nice ego boost to hear you’re entertaining, sure, but the problem is for certain bands we want this to be a career and it’s something that means a lot so we need to hear truth.

    But as a hufflepuff I’m going to contradict myself and say I’d rather just keep chill with my friends.

    Though on the other hand, true friends will stay with you if you critique them and even become stronger friends knowing how honest you can be. Which I guess is what we really should be striving towards.

    Reply
  87. wrocknquidditch Avatar
    wrocknquidditch

    As one of the few people who got to see the WrockSnob’s real identity during the temporary glitch earlier today… I can guarantee you that the individual is competent, informed, a good participant in the community with their other personality, considerate, and has no ill-will in mind. I really respect their opinion, and their RIGHT to have the opinion.

    I’m not sure I understand why there’s this sudden flood of negativity after all of the comments have been so positively-spun all day.

    Just because we’re a supportive community doesn’t mean everything has to be fluffy and cute and everyone has to tell the musicians they’re awesome all the time. Jace of Catchlove mentioned earlier that he had trouble growing musically because no one gave him constructive criticism for a time.

    Reviews are part of music, part of being a musician…and many of us who are wrock musicians consider it real music. Those of us who take it seriously (or, at least, as seriously as one can while still having a blast) really appreciate the insight that this individual has.

    You can’t GROW from “Oh, it’s awesome!” That just gives people an inflated ego, and nothing gets any better. There is no reason that those of us who WANT to can’t utilize this person’s opinion. There’s no reason why our silly little wizard music can’t be good…why the quality can’t get better…why our writing can’t get better.

    You may not be into wrock for the brilliance, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be brilliant…and I think there are quite a few of us musician types out here who would like our music to constantly get better. WrockSnob offers constructive criticism (the taglines may not suggest it, but if you read the review itself, it’s very constructive and very well written and very informed) that we can use.

    Again, knowing who the individual is…I can say confidently that there isn’t any malicious intent…and that the jarring language some of you have referred to up there is just part of that person’s personality…

    Though, you are, as the rest of us, completely entitled to your opinion.

    Reply
  88. Lizz Avatar
    Lizz

    Okay, this is way too many comments to catch up on!

    To respond to what I’ve read, I am, indeed, a Hufflepuff. 😛

    I agree with Alli that there’s a difference between say, Alex, asking me personally what I thought of his last CD and my being honest in that conversation and my publicly declaring that it was horrible. Because, for starters, I would never make such a statement. And though I cannot remember exact instances where I’ve provided such input I know that I have, to several musicians, and the conversations have all been positive. I think the most important difference to consider is between a conversation and a declaration. When discussing some lyrics or a sample of music, the party providing a reaction is giving loose interpretations and opinions. A blog post, on the other hand, is much more affirmative and, though clearly presented as an opinion, gives off an essence of personal fact as opposed to personal feedback.

    At the end of the day, I can’t say whether or not I think “thewrocksnob” is a good idea or a bad one. I really can’t measure any pros or cons from the experiment at all. I used to get extremely worked up about every potentially controversial thing that happened upon the wizard rock community, but after this one and that one and the next a pattern emerged- we all gave it some time and its levity and outrageousness diminished a generous degree. In other words, life went on.

    And I don’t think I’m the only person who has come to accept such a philosophy. When I first saw that this was going on a part of me wondered if it was going to be another shocker full of condemnation and disgust. Doesn’t seem to have that going on, at least not yet.

    *shrug*

    Reply
  89. Scott Humdinger Avatar
    Scott Humdinger

    Abby said it: “I have SO much fun making it (music) that I don’t care if people actually like it or not. If it puts a smile one someone’s face, I’m happy.”

    Reply
  90. Russ Avatar
    Russ

    Just went back and read all the comments for some pre-bedtime LOLs. Here’s what I got out of this:

    Matt thinks criticism is a good idea.
    Miss Parkinson thinks criticism is a good idea.
    Lena thinks criticism is a good idea.
    Jarrod thinks bacon is a good idea.
    Steph thinks discussion is a good idea.
    Grace also thinks discussion is a good idea.
    Kelli thinks criticism is a good idea.
    DK thinks criticism is a good idea.

    I probably missed a few other musicians who chimed in, and for that I apologize; it’s past my bedtime.

    If the blog was intended as constructive reviews of bands and their music, and the bands who will potentially be praised/criticized all think it’s a good idea… why is this such a big deal? Because the community would rather comment flood when there’s drama, rather than on a post about some awesome new bands and music? Or because they don’t like when something they like is criticized (whether justifiably or not) and feel the need to rise up and knock down this anonymous blogger… just because music they like was reviewed using tongue-in-cheek language?

    If the people the blog is targeted at like it and appreciate it for what it is, shouldn’t that pretty much close things up?

    Reply
  91. sparrowing Avatar
    sparrowing

    The “Skullfucking wizard rock’s harmonious sense of community” tagline is very obviously tongue-in-cheek; and I say this as someone who does not list ‘understanding subtle language cues’ at the top of my resume. To those who persist in pointing it out as evidence that the blog is intended to cause wank and bring drama upon our fannish glee: uh, no. Call it bad taste, if you’d like, but don’t base an argument on a sentence which is refuted multiple times in WrockSnob’s actual posts.

    Why are so many assuming that ze is male? I assure you that people of all sorts of genders curse wildly, critique music, use a tone that sounds authoritative, take wild, controversial chances that might inspire some drama, and are not “lovey-dovey Hufflepuffy”. Those aren’t expressly dude traits.

    Reply
  92. tina Avatar
    tina

    Well, I think that the Wizard Rock community consistently chooses and popularizes bands by itself. The community exists of Harry Potter musicians and fans. This community is a micro reflection of how music has always worked and continues to work.
    Look at the winners of the WRPCAs, some of us have always known that it’s popularity contest and that popularity is gained by access to live shows and coverage. This is done through the endless efforts by the musicians to both continue to offer something new and improved, book the shows,record to the best of their ability, and keep a keen ear on the preservation of positivity of the community that has attracted us all. It’s not just the art of music here, we’re talking work and careers.
    In an ideal world things would be evenly scored. But in my time, I have realized that that is an impossible endeavor. That just because you are inspired, doesn’t mean that your efforts will be recognized without a ton of grunt work that a lot of people can’t devote the time to.
    I congratulate and am inspired by MoM, Whompy, DatM, The Remus Lupins and especially HatP for how much work they have put into form this incredible anomaly.
    If you breakdown the genres, you’d see how Wizard Rock reflects the larger music world at times.
    I LOVED Demons at the Helm! I don’t care what genre it fits into at all. There’s my root, personally, as the mom of the Horntails, anything can be something brilliant-even if it doesn’t fit in. I love all genres of music. I am Doris Day/Mozart/Sex Pistols fan 🙂
    I think our critic was really unhappy about the results of the WRPCAs and brought up some good questions about eligibility.
    Look, the Wizard Rock Community would have not thrived the way it has if there was only one opinion. You may not like the opinion, but it makes you think and I totally agree with Russ and Jace as an artist, you can feel a bit boxed in by your own thoughts.
    BTW Russ, I don’t think you understood what I was saying. The critic with the negative criticism helped me realize that my sorta art for art sake attitude can be unpleasant with an out-of-tune guitar. It did change my stubborn mind, eventually 🙂

    Reply
  93. tina Avatar
    tina

    “He has the right to criticize, who has the heart to help?” Abraham Lincoln

    Reply
  94. Jace Avatar
    Jace

    I’ve been trying all day to think of a way to type this message, but I haven’t been able to find my words in a way that seems right. So i’ll just give it a shot;

    So far, and even though we’re only 1 article in, it seems WrockSnob is not out for blood. It does not appear that this person is attempting to “stir shit up.” They are simply saying (especially in the first article) “Listen, you guys have potential to make better music than this last album. It did not deserve Best Album of the Year.” At least, that’s not the vibe I’m getting from it.

    The WrockSnob doesn’t seem to be attacking MoM as people. Then, and really only then, do I feel people should feel offended.

    I’m sure many of you were not around and therefore don’t remember, but once upon a time, back in the summer of 07 when wizard rock was truly making itself known, and turning itself in to what it is today, there was a smear blog called the Acid Quill. It was around for about 4 months before finally disappearing. THAT was a blog to get upset about. It didn’t review albums, it didn’t offer it’s opinions on music, it was a straight up offensive site that slandered a bunch of bands. Including myself, Lauren, Kristina, and even people from mugglecast. It made stories up, made us look bad, and didn’t help anything.

    As long as the WrockSnob stays away from that, from being a tabloid, i welcome them and their criticism.

    Reply
  95. tina Avatar
    tina

    ooh! I remember the brief Acid Quill, turned out to be a waste of time, I’m guessing. I was totally disinterested.

    Reply
  96. Becca Pureblood Avatar
    Becca Pureblood

    I totally agree that criticism is a good thing. As musicians, we should always be evolving, looking for ways to improve and striving to do our best with the talents we possess, even if we don’t have professional recording capabilities. 😉 I know my little band doesn’t have a professional sound. Seriously, we use our keyboard for percussion because we have no drumming skills. Hee hee! As an opera singer, Wizard Rock allows me to get out of my comfort zone and make music just for the fun and silliness of it, without the pressure of the classical singing world! Wizard Rock is a wonderful genre because it provides a place for all musicians both amateur and professional.

    Reply
  97. Whompy Avatar
    Whompy

    I say whateva! You say whateva! Let’s call the whole thing off!

    Reply
  98. tina Avatar
    tina

    TO mat o, ta MA to 🙂 Very Laverne and Shirley of ya! “An ant can’t push a rubber plant :)”

    Reply
  99. Heather Avatar
    Heather

    Before I continue with my (unpopular) opinion, I want you to keep in mind that I’m not trying to be dramatic. Fandom drama is stupid. 😛 I’m just giving my honest response to the ‘pedia question of “what do you think?” I have no malicious intent, but in a topic that’s all about a blog that doesn’t sugar coat, then why do people get so defensive that these comments are sugar-coated, either?

    People have been down on the negative comments, but remember we are entitled to what we have to say as well! 😛 And just because most of the wrockers like something doesn’t mean we have to.

    I’m not a musician, so I can’t comment on how I value criticism from that perspective. I am a writer, however. I’m not a great writer, but I’m someone who is learning. Believe me, I know and have experienced the value of real, constructive criticism. I love well thought criticism of my work, because it shows people are paying attention and it helps me improve. This sort of criticism is a great and much needed thing.

    Are there wizard rockers that need to be brought down a peg or two? Sure, I’d agree with that as well.

    Anonymity? No problems with it whatsoever.

    And like I said in my initial comment, if this person wants to run the blog, great for them. I hope they enjoy it and have fun. I’m not going to be paying much attention to it, but I hope they find it a worthwhile project. I’m not trying to be dramatic or stir up more trouble, but just be honest. Even if I knew who this blogger was, I wouldn’t be mad at them. But I don’t support this.

    The primary reason being that while constructive criticism is really important, I don’t know that a public forum is the most appropriate place for it. As a writer, I have to go through workshops where my classmates read a story of mine and then the whole class period is spent on critiquing my work publicly. This is very stressful for me, even though I’m very appreciative of the feedback. I also find things discussed in private or one on one tend to be more thoughtful because it creates a real dialogue, instead of one-sided shouting. I’m all for wizard rock albums being criticized, but the public hanging aspect of it leaves me uncomfortable.

    I think Whompy said it well when he said record sales are the wrocker’s report cards. There’s plenty of wizard rock I don’t like, but instead of trying to point out everything that’s wrong with it, I don’t buy the albums. I let that speak for my opinion and be done with it, moving on to positive things instead of being negative. It’s just how I roll. 😛 If someone were to ask me to give an honest opinion of any wizard rock, I’d be happy to do it. I’m a very honest person. But I don’t have any interest in throwing out negativity for the hell of it.

    Secondly, I think there’s a huge “look at me, look at me!” attitude of this blogger. That’s ok–every blogger wants to be read. No one wants to waste their time writing something no one will read. Understandable. But the wrock snob has admitted to using “skullfucking” to provoke a response, and to reviewing Ministry of Magic first because they are high profile, and if you right about something high profile you’ll hopefully get a high profile response. It is definitely self-serving to some extent, giving someone a justifiable reason to question the blogger’s intent.

    If you think this blog is a good idea, great. Have fun with it. I don’t. But don’t let me not enjoying it take away from you not enjoying it. 🙂 We don’t have to reach a group consensus here, Brad. 😛

    @wrocknquidditch, your response seemed to be primarily addressed to me (or at least you address the points I made pretty directly), so let me say again that it was not my attention to make wrock out to be a “novelty” or say it’s not real music. Far from it–I believe wrock is real and has just as much potential to be good as music by any other artist. To me it is just as valid an art form. But I do judge it differently–that was what I was trying to say. 🙂

    Reply
  100. Heather Avatar
    Heather

    Haha, I didn’t realize how long that comment was until I posted it. Dang, girlfriend. Slow your roll!

    (also, that is the edited version. would anyone be surprised to note I have often been accused of being verbose?)

    Reply
  101. Clare Avatar
    Clare

    At first, I was torn, but The Wrock Snob seems pretty genuine, as in she/he is not just being a bitch for the sake of it. She/he is making reasonable criticisms and I think that’s important. I’m glad that he/she is choosing bigger, more confident bands because so many people put up wizard rock when they’re just finding their feet and some Hufflepuffly complements are important then.

    I’m also glad that this discussion is civil 🙂

    Reply
  102. wrocknquidditch Avatar
    wrocknquidditch

    @Heather – Sorry! I guess I misunderstood. My Bad! 🙂 <3

    Reply
  103. The Wrock Snob... AND NO ONE ELSE Avatar
    The Wrock Snob… AND NO ONE ELSE

    Firstly, let me say that I agree with Jarrod, in that I too think that bacon is a good idea. Look for “The Bacon Snob” to hit a blog near you this July.

    I could totally bang out two thousand words on why thin-cut back beats the shit outta thick cut bacon.

    Anywho, I think this particular conversation is starting to wrap itself, but I’d like to make a couple more points.

    Heather (first post) – Firstly, I’m not out to just bash albums. There are plenty of wizrock bands that I love, otherwise, I wouldn’t care enough to be doing this sort of thing. Secondly, about the grading system – I should probably put a guide to my grading system somewhere, but whenever anybody uses the traditional letter grading system, I assume they’re using the same values used in school – A = 90-100%, B = 80-90%, and so on until F = less than 60%. And yes, I did like two songs, I loved them, and I could listen to 4 more, but that’s still only 6 songs, out of 12. And in this day and age of iTunes, there’s no excuse for buying a full album when you only like one or two songs – just buy those two songs. So, I feel the F was justified via my opinions. The whole rating thing is pretty arbitrary anyway, and I only threw in the solid gold letter F on a whim.

    Bri (first post)- I’m honestly a bit confused. How do you get “exclusivity” from me? Trust me, I’m not a BNF or a BNWrocker or whatever. And I totally respect just being in wizrock for fun (though I thought that’s what I was doing – I wonder, what would you call it when you’re not in it for fun? I’m certainly not in it for the money! 😉 ), though I don’t see how I’m shutting out those that are just in it for fun. If you don’t want detailed analysis of wizard rock, then you don’t have to come to my tiny corner of the internet. And if you mean that I would shut out opinions opposing to mine, or to the idea of taking wrock seriously, then I have to disagree with you. I welcome dissenting opinions, and I love to discuss them – for me, these sort of debates and discussions are endlessly fun. And if you just want to say that you can’t explain why, but you like this one thing that I really didn’t like, then that’s fine for me.

    However, for me the part that most interested me with your comment was your remark about my tone. Though I really, REALLY didn’t like O&U, I tried to keep my tone civil, and not do any ad hominims. If I can’t say specific style choices and sound designs didn’t work for me, then how could I possibly review anything? But I’d really like to hear what you found to be offensive in tone. Also, nice job on using the word “solipsistic”. I’ll get more into your claims of solipsism later.

    Heather (second post) – Yeah, the tagline and the twitter location may not have been the best idea. But I just slapped these things on before even writing the first article, and I made the site and the twitter and wrote the first article all in the space of a couple hours on Sunday. To be honest, I was expecting to be a lone renegade in a sea of dissenting opinion, and was preemptively being snarky. I’ll admit I did want to get people talking, like they have been (are we at 100 comments yet? Sheesh), but I didn’t want to start shit just to start shit. If my personal opinions happened to start some shit (which I expected to happen), then so be it. But, well, so far, they haven’t. So either my opinions and tone aren’t the shit-starting type, or I’m really bad at what I was trying to do.

    Brad – Thanks having my back dude, but I really think Bri’s and Heather’s opinions are just as valid as everyone else who has said that they like what I’m doing. I mean, at this point, we are discussing people’s opinions about somebody’s (my) opinions. That is an exceedingly gray area, and there is very little room for “facts” that everybody agrees with. And yes, we’ve covered the anonymity extensively. Just because the majority has decided they’re coo with it, doesn’t mean that the minority that still isn’t down is inherently wrong, or their values and opinions are inherently inferior. Majority rule does not equal truth. I mean, this all started because I had a dissenting opinion (O&U was bad) with the majority consensus (O&U swept the WRPCAs). I think it would be ludicrous to say that my dissenting minority opinion is valid, while also saying that other’s dissenting minority opinons about my dissenting minority opinion is invalid. There is nothing wrong with the minority opinion. 🙂

    Bri (second post) – Why don’t I offer my critiques directly to the artist? Well, firstly, I am quite shy and introverted in cases of interpersonal communication, but am very outgoing (sometimes to negative extreme) in public settings. So, it’s just easier and more natural for me to put my critique out in the open, and maybe lay down the groundwork for the artists to stumble upon it. Also, if reviewers didn’t put their reviews in the open, the entire industry of critiquing would not exist. Also also, I really did want to generate discussion and know what other people felt.

    I do really like your point about “dumping on the fans”, though this wasn’t really my intention, going back and looking through my words, I can totally see how you got that. Really, I was looking for a witty way to intro into my review, and I decided to start with my disbelief at O&U doing so well at the WRPCAs. A large part of this comes from the fact that last year “Goodbye Privet Drive” also swept, and I disagreed. I really enjoyed that album, but I felt that many other lesser-known bands had produced music just as good, and wished that the lesser-known bands had gotten more recognition for their work. But this year, I felt that many bands produced work that was not just as good, but much better than O&U, so I felt what I felt last year, but greatly magnified. I didn’t really realize how someone could quite easily take what I said at the beginning as a personal judgment on them if they helped MoM win by voting for them, and I apologize for that. I can see how that would have coloured your opinion of the rest of the review, where I tried to make it clear that while I really didn’t like the album, I’m totally fine if you do, and would actually love to hear from you, and hear why you like it. To be honest, this whole thing has gotten a bit too meta for me, and I would love to hear more dissenting opinions about the album, and specifically what about the album made you vote for it. I find these sort of differences in people positively fascinating.

    Heather (third post) – I completely agree with your first two paragraphs. You do raise an interesting point about the public forum and socratic seminars and the like. However, I am also a writer, and I much prefer socratic seminar style open house constructive crits too personal ones… well, maybe not. Maybe I do like them both just the same. But the point is, I really like the public forum discussions because I really like how it can get sort of off topic and you discuss things beyond just the story you’re reviewing, but broader topics in writing. But, again, that’s just different strokes for different folks.

    I just wanted to comment on that because I find that sort of thing interesting to discuss. However, I do have to disagree with your comment about my Navi-esque “Hey! Listen! Look at me!” attitude. But firstly, I did not use “skullfucking” to get a response (and this is probably the most profane comments board on the ‘pedia), I merely acknowledged that the word skullfucking could get a response out people. I just used it because I really like the word skullfucking. So, that was basically in defense of the word skullfucking. Skullfucking skullfucking skullfucking.

    Anywho, I strongly disagree that wanting to get hits casts aspersions on your character. Like you said, if you make something, you want people to look at it, and I was always going to review this album. I did have to decide which album I would review first – I had quite a lot of choices, but I eventually went with the impetus for making the blog in the first place, and my gut instinct, the MoM album. I really don’t see how this was self-serving beyond getting people to look at my shit, and I just don’t think that’s a bad thing. I certainly didn’t expect as many people to be looking at my shit as has happened. But hey, if you feel what I did was wrong, that’s up to you. I happen to think I am a fine individual (though I do like to kick the occasional puppy), but that’s just my opinion.

    Also, this is the 100th comment. I find that awesome. But not as awesome as bacon.

    Reply
  104. The Wrock Snob Avatar
    The Wrock Snob

    AND DAMMIT, WROCKNQUIDDITCH! NOBODY POSTS FOR OVER AN HOUR, SO I THINK I’M IN THE CLEAR TO CLAIM THE 100TH POST, I EVEN REFRESH AND CHECK RIGHT BEFORE HITTING “SUBMIT COMMENT”, AND YOU STILL SOMEHOW SNIPED IT FROM ME!

    A POX UPON YOUR MAILMAN!

    😉

    Reply
  105. Heather Avatar
    Heather

    Wrock Snob, thanks for the thoughtful response. To me it’s not the use of the word skullfucking particularly (I’m pro profanity :P), it’s the “sense of community” part that bothers me. You can be, let’s say, “skullfucking popular consensus” in the wizard rock community or whatever without skullfucking the sense of community. Attacking the sense of community, to me, comes across as damaging to people or trying to undermine wizard rock and what it’s come to mean, while my re-wording just shows you as a renegade speaking your mind. 😛 An important distinction, I think.

    Also, like I said in my comment, I don’t blame you for trying to kick up controversy to get people to look at what you’re saying. I totally understand that. Of course you want people to read your blog. What I -AM- saying is that you can’t take it 100% as “I intend this to just be constructive criticism” because it’s obvious there’s a little self promotion in there. I don’t think that makes you a bad person, or that it’s wrong (sorry if you got that impression), but I think it’s worth pointing out.

    Again, let me make it clear that I in no way EVER in my posts said you shouldn’t do your blog. If that’s what you want to do, go for it. Don’t let the fact that I don’t like it stop you from doing anything. It’s obviously working for you as a writer–that’s a long ass blog post. Great practice for ya. 😛

    Reply
  106. palantiriel Avatar
    palantiriel

    I like what Brad says above – “These people are musicians just like any other. They want to be treated like musicians. They create music, right? That makes them musicians, and thus they can be subject to review just like anyone else.”
    If Wrock was mainstream music then we could expect in-depth, honest reviews, and though Onwards and Upwards is my favourie MoM album (except maybe Acoustiatus) and I don’t neccesarily agree with a lot of the points made, I still found it interesting to read WrockSnob’s opinion, especially as it’s an opinion from a wrock fan speaking from inside the community, and not a Muggle with no concept of what Wrock is and what it means to fans. I liked how other band suggestions were incorporated into the review.

    Reply
  107. Kim Avatar
    Kim

    “I don’t think any of us are going in looking for huge musical masterpieces. We’re just looking for something fun.”-Heather

    Boom. I think that’s a pretty perfect summary of why I got into wrock in the first place. but… that was a rather long time ago. I think it’s kind of awesome that fans are now demanding better lyrics and musicianship from artists who are winning awards in this genre. It shows a bit of the evolution of wrock. It’s not about the novelty.

    I like the blog’s beginnings, I like the civility of this discussion, and while I don’t agree with the entire review (MoM’s come a loooong way in my opinion, and I’m embracing their continued musical journey) I enjoyed reading it. I don’t mind the anonymity. I don’t think it’s necessarily indicative of fear in the fandom. Plenty of people publicly speak their minds, and plenty of arguments erupt- but that’s part of being involved in a creative community with many different kinds of personalities.

    A+ all around.

    Reply
  108. Kristina Avatar
    Kristina

    All I have to say is that yes, being able to honestly critique each others’ music is a great asset, and growing as musicians should be everyone’s priority…

    but the last time we had an anonymous blog that tried to be brutally honest about the wizard rock community, it turned into the Acid Quill.

    That was hugely negative and hurt a LOT of people, and while this new blog claims to just want to honestly critique bands/albums, it could turn into another Acid Quill in a second. All that skullfuck nonsense makes me wary, and this blog makes me nervous. Some people thrive off internet drama like that, or maybe WANT to see wizard rockers knocked down a peg or two, but I don’t think that’s productive to our community at all. I wish there was a way to talk about people’s music and help each other hone our skills without hiding being anonymity, because that just proves that someone doesn’t have the balls to have an opinion, and wants to try to masquerade themselves as the voice of the fandom or something.

    Reply
  109. Freya Avatar
    Freya

    Kristina – what makes you think there is even a chance for this to turn into the Acid Quill? As far as I know, the AQ started as a gossip blog. Wrock Snob has said that they are writing about music, and so far, they’ve written about music. I don’t think you should be any more concerned about that than the Wizrocklopedia turning into a Justin Bieber fansite. I think they are about equally likely.

    “that just proves that someone doesn’t have the balls to have an opinion, and wants to try to masquerade themselves as the voice of the fandom or something”
    I think this is incredibly unfair. Look at what Pinhead said above – Wrock Snob has made themselves available for critique and comments both in this thread and via their website, either by comment or email over there. Just because you don’t know who it specifically is doesn’t mean they are truly anonymous. I’m guessing the Acid Quill author wasn’t doing the same?
    And Wrock Snob explained several times that the “skullfucking” thing was just a tagline to get attention.

    Reply
  110. Clare Avatar
    Clare

    I don’t think just because something has attention and is anonymous, it means that it will turn in the Acid Quill. I’ll be happy as long as it sticks to honest critiquing of bigger wrock bands.

    Reply
  111. Kristina Avatar
    Kristina

    I never said anything they are doing is wrong – yet. It just makes me nervous. The AQ was all fun and games when it started too.

    Reply
  112. PK9 Avatar
    PK9

    As usual, I jump in like 2 days late on a huge thread.

    I don’t know how much weight my opinion carries, since I hardly count as part of the wrock community (I’m a fan who discovered the genre like 2 1/2 years ago, have downloaded and/or purchased a fair share of music, but has yet to attend a concert, let alone met anyone). But I have noticed that in the world as a whole there’s generally two responses to wizard rock:
    1) “You’re making songs about Harry Potter? That is so stupid and your music is stupid and crap even though I’ve never listened to a sample.”
    2) “Yay, you’re a wrocker! I <<<<333333 you and your music and I would never evaluate it critically because isn't it awesome that people are writing songs about Harry Potter???"

    As stated many times over in this thread, neither of these responses is helpful to a musician who wants to develop and improve. I remember a couple years ago someone in the community who wasn't a wrocker posted a wizard rock song that she had written on Youtube. She was really nervous about it, but in the comments someone said "no one gets rejected in wrock anyways". I happened to really like her song, but I wonder if anyone would have provided any constructive criticism to help her improve if there were areas of weakness.

    I also remember there was a backlash against MTV when they did a list of "Top 10 Wizard Rock Bands". I think there was a valid concern about whether MTV put enough effort into evaluating to generate the top 10 list, but there was also a sentiment of "they shouldn't be ranking us at all, everyone's equal in wizard rock." I think that's unfair because it's unrealistic. There is a small fraction of the wrock bands that really put a lot of effort into writing, recording, and producing good music, and are serious about being musicians rather than just dabbling in it for fun. They deserve the recognition for what they do, and with that comes the expectation that the can be evaluated and critiqued.

    If the wrock snob stays true to the mission statement of truthfully critiquing wizard rock, I think that's a good thing. It's just a bit scary that it is so harsh on what is considered one of the top wrock bands, what will (s)he have to say about the rest?

    P.S. Is THAT what Lauren's song "The Acid Quill" was referring to?

    Reply
  113. Zoë (Split Seven Ways etc) Avatar
    Zoë (Split Seven Ways etc)

    Still late to the party! Hey I’m not “active” in wrock anymore, I’m allowed to be late, right?

    Admittedly I am one of those people who actually hangs around fandom drama blogs/communities/etc so I’m not exactly pure and innocent on this front – it’s more the “THIS IS NOT THE SNUGGLENETS” opinion from me, alas, but I never claimed to be a nice person 😉 But so far The Wrock Snob looks far from drama-y to me (I know drama) and from the looks of things this level of good debate will last. objective criticism is good. Painful? Sometimes. Useful? Yep.

    Reply
  114. SarahW Avatar
    SarahW

    Thanks for this article and thanks for everyone who has commented.

    I joined the online HP community 6 years ago and I’ve seen some really great things, but also some really nasty, mostly anonymous, things that have hurt HP friends in the past- not just the Acid Quill. Some friends stuck with the community and some did not. Not everything has been rosy in the wrock world, but those connections eventually kept getting better – at least for me – to the point that they healed the other hurts and made being a part of the HP community worth it again. So, I’d been holding out coming over and reading what was going on, but this thread HAS helped alleviate many of my concerns about the environment the anonymous Wrock Snob could us back to.

    I do believe we want the bands to be the best they can be. I think constructive feedback is an awesome thing, but I think some of us prefer to do it privately/in-person rather than publicly, not out of fear but rather to guarantee that the band actually hears what we have to say and understands us correctly. Online is so tricky. Others of us don’t have a way to do it privately and don’t think we can get our meanings properly across in a written way, so we refrain. Like I said, for many of us I don’t think it’s fear, rather knowing how hard it is to do such things online.

    As mentioned in some previous comments above, we vote for the bands so to the point of causing ourselves financial, school, work, or other difficulties. Our time and our money is limited so when we do find ourselves in positions where we COULD have critical discussions with the bands we love, we use those brief moments instead to maximize the reason we probably came to the wizard rock event (or any rock event for that matter) – for having fun and improving our friendships – rather than critical artistic discussions.

    That’s just my opinion. Hopefully discussions like this will help those that DO want to have critical artistic discussions online to continue to improve their ability to do so.

    Reply
  115. SarahW Avatar
    SarahW

    The cut and paste from the notepad I was typing in seems to have left out some words that are DEFINITELY there, but I think you get the gist of what I’m saying 😀

    Reply
  116. PK9 Avatar
    PK9

    An addendum: (I guess my lengthy comment required moderating, and yesterday when I didn’t see it show up I retyped the whole thing out and added a couple points that wasn’t on the original comment.)

    So here are those additional points:

    1) If wizard rock is to grow in popularity, more people have to be convinced to get past Response #1 that I listed above, and the only way to do that is show them that wrock is equal in quality to mainstream.

    2) I see a problem with the point that record sales are the report cards. With popular acts, albums tend to be bought before the buyer has had a chance to fully listen to all the songs, or even any of the songs with the preorder phenomenon. Now, I’m pretty selective so there are only a handful of bands (wrock or muggle) that I would purchase the album without previewing, but if that album turns out to be disappointing, I’ve already purchased it and thereby sent a signal that I approve it.

    Reply
  117. Alatarielle Avatar
    Alatarielle

    personally, my interest in wizard rock reviews is the same as it is for mainstream music: zero.
    I listen to what I like.

    @PK9
    “If wizard rock is to grow in popularity, more people have to be convinced to get past Response #1 that I listed above, and the only way to do that is show them that wrock is equal in quality to mainstream.”

    sorry, the only thing I have to say to this is, if someone needs a review to be convinced to keep listening to wizard rock or other wizard rock bands, they dont belong in this community.
    To me, it’s still first and foremost a community. It’s majorly made up of young bands a lot of the time kids who try to make music just because they can.
    And I agree with Lizz, it is one thing to tell somebody personally what you think about their music/album/song and another to put it up on a public site as a review.

    Maybe mainstream needs reviews and maybe mainstream bands need reviews to get feedback. But I believe that there are better opportunities to get feedback in Wizard Rock like tips and comments from fans and fellow bands than a review site offers.

    Wrocksnob has of course every right to write about whatever he/she likes and I have no place or intention to tell him/her what to do.

    Reply
  118. PK9 Avatar
    PK9

    @Alatarielle
    “sorry, the only thing I have to say to this is, if someone needs a review to be convinced to keep listening to wizard rock or other wizard rock bands, they dont belong in this community.”

    I think you misunderstood my point. Reading a review is not what’s going to convince an average HP fan to start listening to wizard rock. Hearing wizard rock and realizing that its on par with their own mainstream preferences is what will get them to start listening. Then as they get more into it they’ll be more accepting of lesser quality bands and appreciating their effort.

    Lets be honest. If your best friend released an album that either sounded terrible or simply was not in your taste of music, you would probably be supportive of his/her effort, but how often would you actually listen to that album when you’re all alone at your computer or in your car?

    Reply
  119. PK9 Avatar
    PK9

    So where wrocksnob comes in is that bands can use the critique to improve their music quality so that the “HP fan but not wrock fan” demographic can be better reached. That’s what I meant by growing wizard rock.

    Reply
  120. Alatarielle Avatar
    Alatarielle

    @PK9

    “So where wrocksnob comes in is that bands can use the critique to improve their music quality so that the “HP fan but not wrock fan” demographic can be better reached.”

    I see where you’re coming from, but to me wizard rock has not to get better to get more appealing to a greater audience. I’m fine with it as a community as it is. It seems to me the bigger it gets the less personal and the more regular band-fans atmosphere develops and the more intense insane “fangirling” is showing. I have met a lot of the bands over the last years and I always found that they will listen to what I have to say about their music or their performance and (though maybe not from my personal comments but still) they have managed to use these interactions. Wizard Rock has been around for a while now and the bands have managed to get better and better in quality without receiving reviews in this form.
    And as we see in the comments above people dont have a problem with telling their friends about what they think of their music. That’s been good and honest enough and less a potential disincentive.
    While I’m not a musician, I still think that it’s a better way to learn, than having one person’s opinion out there on a public page pulling the music apart bit by bit. I dont mean pulling apart as generally criticising everything, but just the whole idea of taking a song and analysing it (especially when it’s line by line) the way wrocksnob has for example done it with Demon at the Helm is weird to me. I think I personally didnt need a single sentence of this post to understand what Matt was trying to say with this album and that includes translating songs and potentially getting things wrong. I personally think reviews like that lessen the listening experience to find out the underlined meaning of the songs for oneself.

    Maybe it’s that I have a general dislike of reviews, especially when it comes from people who cant/dont create something like the thing they are reviewing/criticising (in this case music) themselves. That might not be the case here, I dont know, cause I dont know who this person is.

    Reply
  121. PK9 Avatar
    PK9

    @ Alatarielle
    “I see where you’re coming from, but to me wizard rock has not to get better to get more appealing to a greater audience. I’m fine with it as a community as it is.”

    I’m a little unclear as to what the first sentence means, but it sounds like the gist of your statement is that you would prefer the number of listeners to remain the same rather than grow? As someone who’s not really in the community (or possibly right on the edge of the community), maybe my perspective is a little different than yours. I would think that any artist (by “artist” here I mean anyone who has produced their own creative content, including musicians) would want as many people as possible to experience and appreciate their work. I don’t think anyone has any illusions of wrock becoming mainstream, but the idea of intentionally keeping the listenership down to keep the community more personal seems counterproductive to me.

    My personal opinion that anyone who is a Harry Potter fan who also likes music should be a wizard rock fan. Every genre in music is represented by wrock, so there HAS to be something that would appeal to each person, as long as the quality is good. And honestly, Harry Potter is just as valid of a subject to use to write music about as this random person named Stacy who happens to have a hot mom or girls kissing girls or beetles from the family Lampyridae. So once a casual HP fan gets past the initial weirdness of the idea, I think they would like it.

    Reply
  122. Alatarielle Avatar
    Alatarielle

    @PK9
    well, I dont mind more people liking wizard rock and coming to the concerts and things, as long as they are positive about it. I see how I could have sounded like I didnt want more people though. That’s not it, the more the merrier, as long as they have a positiv attitude about it and dont go round telling bands to not make music, just cause they think their quality isnt good. And maybe I’m just a bit overprotected, but just dont think it’d be a bonus for the community who put quality as the first priority. To me wizard rock is just not all about mainstream quality, it’s about the community and the people in it. And I just dont like the idea of someone needing it to be top quality to want to listen to it, because it’s so much more than that.

    btw personally, I think Harry Potter is a much more valid subject to use to write music on than Stacys mom or kissing girls 😉

    Reply
  123. VoldeMargo Avatar
    VoldeMargo

    I’m an wrocker. I think Wrocksnob is brilliant. They’re fair, well informed, and offer proper criticism of the music, something irritatingly hard to find in wrock. (Not that it doesn’t exist.) In wrock, everybody feels like your friend, and while I might give some criticism, I’d rarely be brutally honest with people.
    In an amazing, all-loving community like this one, I think we need someone to keep things straight. And I think that the anonymity separates them from pre-standing relationships and makes the reviews fairer.
    Wrocksnob won’t stop people being loved and accepted in the community, and will, I hope, spur us to make even better music.

    If it does get bitchy and acidic, I know that this collection of some of the fairest, kindest people I’ve ever virtually met will bring it DOWN.

    Reply
  124. Ellatrix Avatar
    Ellatrix

    Right, I don’t have time to read every single comment, but i’ll give my two pennies worth.

    I understand why the Wrock Snob feels they should remain anonymous; in fact, I think it’s best they do. If it’s someone in the community who we all know, which is most likely, people are going to start arguing they’re going to discourage smaller bands from making music.

    Yeah, I’m in a smaller band, and I can see it happening. If the Wrock Snob’s going to continue to be ‘skullfuckingly honest’ or whatever, surely smaller bands who were attracted to wizard rock because of the ‘loving community’ and ability to write whatever the hell they wanted are going to be discouraged from continuing, even STARTING, to write music?

    Of course, I realise the Wrock Snob’s not honestly going to start attacking younger bands who are clearly just doing it for fun and a creative outlet, but I’m worried, nervous, that it’s going to create some fear. One of the main reasons I was attracted to wizard rock was the knowledge that even if people didn’t necessarily LIKE my music, I’d be respected for plucking up the courage and making it anyway.

    I do think the community needs someone to offer constructive critique, but couldn’t the way the Wrock Snob is going about it appear, I don’t know, ‘scary’? Now, I might sound biased, but I think it’s fine for the Wrock Snob to offer some criticism to ‘bigger’ bands, established musicaians, who can clearly handle it, and at first, I thought that was what the Wrock Snob was going to do.

    But my band name appeared in one of the Wrock Snob’s posts, and I don’t personally have a problem with that. Although the Wrock Snob wasn’t, in fact, saying anything critical about my band, I wouldn’t have an issue with them if they did. But it did make me think that the Wrock Snob possibly isn’t aware of who they’re going to offend in their articles, and a smaller, younger band could definitely take criticism the wrong way.

    But yeah. Basically, I just think the community needs to keep an eye on the Wrock Snob’s and who they’re going to offend. I definitely agree that, done in the right way, the Wrock Snob could be a bit of fun and a way to improve our music without any personal animosity. But it definitely has the potential to become another AQ, and that would certainly not be a positive thing.

    🙂

    Reply
  125. zfrancishp Avatar
    zfrancishp

    I think that Wrock Snob does a good job at reviewing groups and such. He/she seems to be well educated in Wizard Wrock and i think that his/her reviews allow us too look at Wizard Wrock from many angles. Although I must agree with previous comments in the fact that he/she can sometimes be a bit too critical, but other than that I say keep reviewing.

    Reply

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