At the Wizrocklopedia, we want everyone to feel comfortable discussing things. That’s what Question Tuesday is all about, after all. The problem is that sometimes we don’t all agree. No one seems to mind when someone else likes another wizard rock song more, but once we get into heavier topics, we tend to label disagreeing as “fighting”. People can disagree and still get along perfectly fine.
Case in point: Matt of The Whomping Willows and Grace of Snidget recently had a discussion about sexism in wizard rock. Even though they have opposite viewpoints, they managed to sit down and have a rational discussion and listen to each other. (Well, until the end. Things got a little heated, and there are quite a few capitalized letters).
What follows is the exact transcript sent to me. Read it, think about it, and feel free to comment one way or the other! We’d love to hear what you have to say as well. That holds true for anything that we post.
Disclaimer: This is a staged debate between two friends, and our intention is to encourage thought about an issue that’s complex and impossible to resolve for certain. We hope others will carry on the discussion in the same spirit of learning and friendship.
According to Meriam-Webster, sexism is defined as:
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
Matt: I believe that there is no sexism inherent in the structure of the wizard rock community. If sexism exists, it’s perpetrated by specific individuals who do not represent the values of the larger community.
Grace: I believe that there is sexism within the wizard rock community and I think that, like many dangerous attitudes, it is a quiet and often unacknowledged presence. Saying that it’s perpetrated by individuals who do not represent the mostly shared values of wizard rock makes it easy to excuse sexist behavior – you can simply write it off as being an outlier. I disagree with that; I think that the sexism in the community is not something that can be traced to a few individuals.
Matt: I do believe that sexism, when it’s built into the fabric of a larger community (i.e., western civilization), is a quiet and often unacknowledged presence, and the process of exposing it is often difficult because it shatters traditions that many people believe are good and natural. But in the case of wizard rock, I believe that sexism was never woven into the fabric of the community, deliberately or otherwise. If sexist individuals exist within the wizard rock community, it’s a product of our greater societal tendencies that they are not exposed. Wizard rock is a community in which any artist can thrive, regardless of gender; in fact, I would even say that women have greater control of the community’s past, present, and future than men do.
Grace: I really like your explanation of sexism built into the fabric of a community, but I think it fits for ours as well. I don’t think it was brought in deliberately – I don’t think anyone in wizard rock is trying to actively discrimitate based on sex – but I do think that it is present. I think The Witch Rock series that Stacy Pisani put together would not exist if there was no gender difference at all in the community.
I’m not sure what you mean by saying women have greater control of the community’s past – I mean, there wasn’t even a female fronted wizard rock tour until the beginning of 2008 (to my knowledge). The history of wizard rock seems full of wizard rock males. In fact, if you read the Wizrocklopedia’s “History of Wizard Rock” article, the only female wizard rock band to earn a mention is The Switchblade Kittens.
An artist can exist, regardless of gender, in any musical community; I don’t believe that the ability to thrive is something wizard rock grants all musicians.
Matt: What I mean is that the vast majority of wizard rock fans are women. Based on my touring experience, my audience is 85 to 90% female. When the success of a band is at stake, it’s up to the fans to make it happen. No touring band can sustain itself without fans to attend the shows and support them by purchasing their merchandise. That’s just reality. So, in that sense, women have control over the future of touring wizard rock bands. If they lose interest, if they stop coming to shows and purchasing merch, then the touring bands will inevitably fade away.
Furthermore, the largest wizard rock events are run by women. All of the major Harry Potter conferences since the beginning have been run by women and almost fully staffed by female volunteers. Wrockstock is run by a woman, and most of its volunteers are female. In almost every instance of a major conference or festival, women are in charge of deciding who gets to play these high-profile events. The only exception would be LeakyCon, as a male was “in charge” of wizard rock at the conference. But the band lineup was decided by a committee of four people: three females and one male. (Side note: wizard rock’s only major news site is also run by women!)
I believe you’re right about the absence of a female-fronted wizard rock tour before 2008, with one exception: The Parselmouths toured with The Whomping Willows in fall 2007, and (if I remember correctly) the bands took turns “headlining” each show.
But before 2008, how many wizard rock bands were touring in the first place? Harry and the Potters, Draco and the Malfoys, The Remus Lupins, The Whomping Willows, and The Parselmouths… I’m almost positive that’s it. Harry and the Potters created the wizard rock genre and they built the foundation on which the entire community rests. They invited Draco and the Malfoys to tour with them in 2006 — in fact, the Malfoys have rarely toured without Harry and the Potters having invited them along. The Remus Lupins worked very hard to establish themselves before they went on tour, and they did it largely through promotion on myspace and so forth. Same deal with The Whomping Willows. And those early tours were not successful ventures. My first tour involved a lot of sleeping in parking lots of hotels I couldn’t afford to stay in and playing to audiences of one, five, ten people. My second tour was more successful, as I’d managed to build up recognition as a live performer and my music was beginning to reach more people. Success was not granted to me; I had to put a lot of work into it.
I’d like to draw a comparison between my own band and The Moaning Myrtles. The two bands exist in basically the same space. We’ve existed for the same amount of time, we’ve been equally engaged in the community since the beginning, our fanbase is roughly the same size, and we have very similar success in terms of CD sales and iTunes royalties. In order to achieve my current level of success, I’ve had to tour incessantly for nearly two years. I played about 100 shows in 2007, 162 shows in 2008, and I will play 120 shows this year. The Myrtles, on the other hand, have achieved the same level of success with much less touring. It’s my belief that if sexism were a significant presence in the wizard rock community, this reality wouldn’t be possible.
Grace: All of the things you say about women and their prominent role in the community are great – they run conferences, they run websites, they come to shows and support bands and are generally amazing. But the one thing that doesn’t get mentioned in that list is women who are in bands. I know the fan population is a majority of females, but I think they also take the majority for people forming wizard rock bands. For whatever reason, though, it doesn’t always feel to me like women are in the majority there as well.
Male bands tend to be in the majority for official convention performances and high-profile releases like the EP of the Month Club and the Jingle Spells compilations. There are a number of reasons why this could be, but at the end of the day the male bands are simply more well-known. Most of this is from their hard work and incredible talent, but some of it is because organizers are usually looking for bands that fans will go crazy for.
The point you made about wizard rock fans controlling the future of wizard rock is a good one. At the core of that idea, the fans decide who or what is popular. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that sexism may exist within the fanbase – who can track down every fan and discern their reasons for the choices they make? – and that, even if that sexism is a product of western society, it can naturally bleed into wizard rock community. Because then that influences the choices event or comp organizers make, and it spreads on. It’s not always a huge thing – the undercurrent is what I find dangerous, because as you said earlier, it’s so hard to track and expose for what it is.
I’m trying to imagine a wizard rock scene where all the gender ratios were swapped: a predominantly male fanbase and male event organizers. I wonder if male bands would be less visible because of that, or if they would still dominate the scene.
When people have had this discussion in the past, the ability to tour generally comes up as the major reason why the male-fronted bands have a greater visibility. But you pointed out that in the case of The Moaning Myrtles, that’s not actually true. So I’m even more surprised that wizard rock females aren’t more well-known; if touring isn’t the major stepping stone to wizard rock success, why haven’t more names – male or female – floated to the top of the scene? I guess we all have a bit to learn from Lauren and Nina.
Of course, most wizard rockers aren’t looking for nerd fame or long-term success; I’m just arguing the point.
Matt: I think success is a product of many things, and one factor that many people ignore in these conversations is timing and participation. In general, the most popular/successful bands are the ones that started in late 2005 when the scene exploded into prominence, and also took an active role in discussions on bulletin boards and whatnot. Lupins, Malfoys, Myrtles, Willows, Parselmouths — all of these folks invested a lot into the community from the beginning, and built on the foundation that the Potters had created. These bands spent months networking and forming friendships with fellow bands and fans alike. Our success wasn’t just granted to us; it developed over time.
That’s not to say that other bands didn’t try hard enough. There are many bands that began in late 2005 and haven’t been able to establish themselves in as prominent a position as The Remus Lupins or The Moaning Myrtles. I think some of this has to do with people’s musical preferences. All of the most popular wizard rock bands write catchy songs that fall within some popular style of music. There’s also a certain level of opportunity that comes into play. Most wizard rock bands are staffed by teenagers or college students who can’t tour, and who are too busy with school and work to spend significant amounts of time networking online.
Furthermore, I think experience is a big factor that is often overlooked. All of wizard rock’s most prominent bands (including ones that didn’t form in 2005, like Oliver Boyd and the Remembralls, Ministry of Magic, Gred and Forge, Swish and Flick, Justin Finch-Fletchley, etc.) have had extensive past experience with music. They know how to record and release records, and they know how to book shows and promote their music.
I also think that touring bands all have one thing in common: we’ve made choices that have allowed us to tour. Paul quit his day job; Joe gave up summer vacations at home during high school and college; Bradley took extensive time out of work and away from his family to tour; Brian basically pulled off some magic where he went from having a day job to working at home and having more flexibility; I quit my day job; JFF quit his day job; I’m pretty sure Alex has put off an acting career to do this. I think over the next couple years, you’re going to see more people making difficult choices like these. I think these newly touring bands will be predominantly female, and I think they will replace touring bands that are fronted by males who have decided to go back to their day jobs or school or whatever. This change is already in motion; The Moaning Myrtles toured for nearly a month this summer, Steph from Tonks and the Aurors is touring whenever she gets the chance, Lena from The Butterbeer Experience is expanding from traditional wizard rock to full-fledged musicals and she’ll be staging her latest production at Infinitus 2010. These are major developments in wizard rock and they’re impossible to ignore.
Yes, males have been represented more frequently at major cons and on major compilations, but the ratios really aren’t that bad relative to the larger music industry. The EP Club has featured 18 bands fronted by males, 12 bands fronted by females, and 3 bands fronted by both males and females. LeakyCon featured 7 bands fronted by males and 5 bands fronted by females. Wrock Chicago featured 16 bands fronted by males and 14 bands fronted by females. Wrockstock 2009 fits more into the male-dominated category, with 11 bands fronted by males and 4 fronted by females. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, but I think wizard rock represents a vast improvement over what you see in the mainstream music industry.
Regardless, (and here’s the crux of my argument) I do think that touring still represents a major stepping stone to success, and is probably the most significant factor if you were to create some kind of nerdy pie chart of reasons for success. The Moaning Myrtles tend to be an exception to the rule, but I don’t buy the notion that their example proves that touring isn’t a major stepping stone to success. I think their example proves that people really need to see the forest for the trees here. When you just focus on the handful of touring bands, you disregard the dozens of successful bands who don’t tour. I think there are bands who’ve earned success through networking, participating in the community, releasing music that connects with a lot of people, and playing shows whenever they can. The Moaning Myrtles, The Parselmouths, and Ministry of Magic are at the top of this crowd, no doubt, and I think that gender ratio holds true for the entirety of the non-touring but still successful bands.
One more point: I think we have to keep in mind that the wizard rock community is relatively small, and there’s only so much attention, time, and money to go around. There are some hardcore fans who listen to every band and buy all the wizard rock CDs they can — I freaking love those people. But I’d be willing to bet that the majority of wizard rock fans are more casual; they love Harry and the Potters and Draco and the Malfoys, they got into a couple other bands at Prophecy or Wrock Chicago and they’ll catch a Remus Lupins and/or Whomping Willows show when we roll into town. They don’t read the Wizrocklopedia because they may not have heard of it, or they just don’t care that much about the larger scene. These aren’t bad people — that’s just how it goes. Not everyone is a hardcore fan who goes out of their way to appreciate every wizard rock band in existence. It might seem strange to the tight-knit community of wizard rock enthusiasts that some fans of The Remus Lupins have never heard of The Parselmouths, or that some fans of The Moaning Myrtles have never heard of The Mudbloods, but those people exist in large numbers and the only real way to reach them is to tour or play at a major conference.
Grace: Okay, so you’re saying the Myrtles are the exception to the rule. I get that. I do think that’s a great thing for people to keep in mind, though: touring may be what got most of the first round of big-name wizard rockers to the levels of success they’re at now, but it’s not the only way.
You mentioned that most of the bands that hit it big from that initial group had music in popular musical styles. I’ll disagree with that; I think what really made them catchy was hilarious lyrics. The Potters, the Malfoys, the Parselmouths and even your older songs were all extremely funny – I think The Remus Lupins would be the exception. So I think that’s perhaps what set the original group apart. I don’t think anybody’s success was granted to them; that’s what I meant earlier: everybody in this community has gotten where they have by hard work. There are other forces at work as well, things you mentioned like timing and genre and people’s attitudes, but there’s no denying that everyone has put in incredible amounts of hard work.
Over time the community has also seen a development in what is desired in a live show; the major cons and such are dominated by full bands now, as opposed to the solo singer-songwriter types that many bands are when they start out. I imagine that has a great impact on what is chosen and what is popular as well. It’s generally easier to dance and rock out to a full band than one acoustic guitar, so I know that’s a factor. I just think that among these many factors, sexist attitudes play their part.
A quick vaguely-related point: you talk a great deal about the importance of touring, and I agree that’s a central part of potential success, but the compilations and sponsored releases like the EP of the Month club are also important opportunities that can’t be overrated. Cons fit the same idea; RiddleTM hasn’t done a world tour, but Victoria and Georgia are fairly well known now because of the opportunities they’ve taken part in. They’ve always been excellent musicians, but the exposure can make the difference. That’s why I would love to see some of those male/female numbers you detailed shift a bit – because they really don’t reflect what our community contains. I don’t want to deprive bands who have worked so hard of opportunities, but I think sometimes the community loses sight of where we started. Projects like The Wradar and Dinah’s upcoming Daily Wrocket project will help a great deal, I think.
But I’m drifting from whatever point I was trying to make. Let’s see if I can find it.
The females in this community have done amazing things. Steph Anderson was one of the first female wizard rockers to tour. Stacy Pisani is kicking ass and taking names all over NYC. Tina Olson has been booking awesome small-town shows since as long as I can remember. Lena’s playing with a full band. Ashley and Emma from Bella and le Strangers are driving all over the east coast to play shows. The Moaning Myrtles and The Parselmouths – well, they’re practically legends.
It makes me happy to see more and more female wizard rockers stepping up to the plate. I think it’s important for fans to see women rocking out just as much as men, and that the individuals we have in this community of both genders can serve as excellent role models. I just hope we continue as a community to keep avoiding easy stereotypes and traditions. I think the sexism issue honestly had its peak – it’s still there, but I think things are getting better. We are definitely nearing a transitional point in wizard rock. The latest wave of bands to rise to popularity is a different crowd bringing new musical styles and ideas to the table, and that’s awesome.
I’d love to see as many women play at Infinitus as men. I don’t mean that there should be quotas or anything ridiculous like that, just that I hope women in the community continue to step up and tour and release albums and take the world by storm. And I’d love to see the major compilation creators and the like take more notice, because they honestly do have so much influence.
You said, “I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, but I think wizard rock represents a vast improvement over what you see in the mainstream music industry.” On that note, I can agree with you completely. The wizard rock community is extremely accepting and fairly open-minded, and I definitely think the shared attitudes valued by the majority of the community are a major improvement over those of the mainstream music industry. There are plenty of wizard rockers, myself included, who would be doing very different things with their lives if it wasn’t for the kindness and support of this group. But I also agree that sexism happens sometimes whether we mean for it to or not – and that’s something we should all at least be aware of.
I do think sexism exists within our group, but I would agree that it is to a lesser degree than in other musical communities. I get nervous when people refuse to discuss this subject or any other, though; I think it’s good for us to always be willing to look objectively at the world we live in.
Matt: Grace, I honestly can’t argue with anything you’ve said here. I’ll even concede that amusing lyrics put certain bands over the edge in the beginning, although I will state that there are countless bands with very witty lyrics that haven’t made it big yet. Whatever the case may be, I agree with you completely that the changes already in progress are without a doubt positive. I have been particularly inspired by Steph Anderson, who completely shatters traditional expectations of women without even trying. If I had daughters, I would want Steph to be their role model.
I think you’re also correct that expectations for live shows has shifted, especially since Wrockstock 2008, Wrock Chicago and Wrock Reggies, all of which featured a few of the more legendary wizard rock performances in the genre’s history. However, please keep in mind that this affects like 95% of wizard rock bands, regardless of gender. Once again, I can offer myself as an example: I tour very often with The Remus Lupins, and there’s always that initial pressure to get some sort of full band together — usually it involves begging Toby and Tyler to play with me. 🙂 I was planning to open for them solo and acoustic this summer, but I realized right away that I wouldn’t be able to keep up with them. They put on a fantastic live show and fans go crazy for them. My acoustic guitar can only take me so far. Having a band is a blessing, especially during the summer when the fans are hoping to have a good time.
In conclusion, I think you’ve made a strong case for the presence of sexism in wizard rock. However, I don’t think it’s something that necessarily stems from wizard rock’s development. Rather, I think it was introduced, and I’d even dare say that women are responsible for it as much or even more so than men. If female fans and convention planners are giving more support and more opportunities to male-fronted bands, then it’s entirely possible that this trend is a product of the sexist society in which we live and in which wizard rock operates. But as revolutionary women throughout history have proven, change is always possible. Ultimately it’s up to wizard rock fans and promoters to ensure that female-fronted bands are given the attention and respect they deserve.
Grace: I couldn’t have said it better myself. I definitely agree that women are as responsible if not more so than men – sexism isn’t limited to any one gender. That said, I cannot wait to see where the wizard rock community goes from here. The future holds a lot of promise.
I’ve really enjoyed hearing your points of view on the subject and think that you’ve brought up some excellent considerations. It’s a tricky and controversial subject, but one well worth discussing. Thanks for having this conversation – I think it was a good one.
Viva la revolucion!
Matt: I feel the same, my friend! I hope this will encourage some thought, not only about the issues we’ve discussed, but also about the process of discussion itself. Our community will continue to grow if we continue to communicate with each other — not only about happy/lovey/rainbow stuff (i.e., OMG I JUST TOUCHED VOLDEMARK’S HEAD AND AN ANGEL CAME TO ME IN A VISION AND TOLD ME THAT I WILL HAVE 50 YEARS OF GOOD LUCK!), but also the potentially contentious issues that are difficult to discuss without debate.
Grace: Yeah, the community could really use some consideration on the process of discussion itself. Every time somebody tries to start one, you can almost feel the fireballs coming.
Matt: Fireballs? Are you talking about how I ate too much candy when I was young? ARE YOU SAYING I’M FAT?!
Grace: OMG YOU HATE FAT PEOPLE? WHAAAAAAAT?!?!
Matt: YOU’RE SEXIST!
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